Dawkins trying to arrest Pope Benedict Xvi

For god to exist we need to start thinking about an entire new plane of existance outside our own, one where an entity can at will change things with in our existance. A plane of existance that we're supposed to enter upon death and live an afterlife. It's fairytales

It is a fairytale i would love to believe in, If God poked his head out of his dimension and said "OI, IM REAL" I would be very happy!

Yet you will happily accept that the universe is being pushed around by an invisible force we cannot see/measure/proove exists ;)

@keyser87
God is a theory, yet to be proven/dis proven scientifically
For some the contents of various religious book is enough evidence to support believing the possibility of there being a 'god', or at the very least giving them cause to follow their own path in investigation (as in the traditional sense this was the purpose of the main stream religions)
 
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What do you mean there is no proof either way? The non religious sides proof is where is the believers sides proof?


You're proof is that there is no proof?




Considering there is no proof doesn't the ball fall in the non believers court?

But you are a beliver, there is no proof to sup[port your position yet you have made a leap of faith.

The ball falls in the "there's no way to know/I don't know" court.


We don't say 'there is no way to know so why bother' because time and time again belief in Gods have proven to be harmful,


So has nearly everything should we ban that too?


But if everyone took the "there's no proof so I won't decide then there would be no problem would there? (well aside from people killing each other over everything else but that's apparently define)

there are those who wish to fly planes into buildings, kill girls for learning and implement a dark age style of law.


Yet the numerous sectarian murderers/fascist regimes/genocidal dictators, are all some how better because they did it, just because, rather than in the name of some being?



Hence why an active effort is made for people to justify their beliefs, their tax free status, their immunity from the law and criticism.

No they have to justify their claim to tax free status because it's an expensive allowance from the state not because religions have been used as an excuse in the past.

As far as when actual evidence which is clearly demonstrable comes about them the majority of atheists will have no choice to believe but until then why would they?

Of course they will have a choice to believe, as i said lots of people don't believe what many consider facts and visa versa.


Yes there would be a few unwilling to but these are fringe conspiracy theorist like the 9/11 truthers or the guys who go to bed at night fearing the illuminati.

Or the several billion people who had chosen another religion or the hundreds of millions of entrenched atheists who say "there is no god" and are as vehement in their belief as any religious person.

They wouldn't change.
No one takes them seriously. The main point here is when clear evidence comes about then that will be the time to believe,


Actually when clear 100% undeniable evidence comes, it will be impossible for any one to believe.

They would all know.
doing it on a whim is just well pointless,

Yet you have decided on a whim that you cannot say "I don't know" and instead have decided to believe based on even less proof than the average religion has.


what if your praying to the wrong God your just making him angrier and angrier - Homer Simpson.

If you're going to use that as an argument surely flat out denying his existance is worse than saying "I don't know and so can't decide"?

(iirc in most religions those people sort of go to the middle ground be tween heaven and hell)

What if god doesn't care or know of your existence?

We may just be "gods" version of the e-coli experiment, sealed in a jar and left to breed to see if anything interesting happens.

Maybe god died at the point in which he created the universe

who knows maybe he got bored around 2000 years ago and left to try again.

maybe he doesn't exist and we are the spectacular creation of quantum chance and mechanical certainty


Until someone puts proof either way in from of me I'll stick with not knowing.
 
Why? I can catergorically prove that religion isn't fiction.
Now you've lost it, religion can be categorically proven to be fiction.

This the main thing that frustrates me about this argument, people attach the question of whether there's a God to religion.
 
Now you've lost it, religion can be categorically proven to be fiction.

Nope, religion is a real world thing, with real world buildings, real world books and real world people. I can see a church from where I am sitting. Religion does not belong in fiction because religion is real. What the religions believe is something else completely debateable.

This the main thing that frustrates me about this argument, people attach the question of whether there's a God to religion.

Yeah, I mean, it is almost as if the two are related somehow...:D
 
Nope, religion is a real world thing, with real world buildings, real world books and real world people. I can see a church from where I am sitting. Religion does not belong in fiction because religion is real. What the religions believe is something else completely debateable.
Ok, I see your point now, sorry. I should say that pretty much everything preached by religion as historical is fiction, or at least, very far from documented.

Yeah, I mean, it is almost as if the two are related somehow...:D
Don't be so facetious. The concept of a religious God is easily disproved, or at least, is easily made to be extremely unlikely to exist. I obviously overestimated the level on which we were debating.
 
Nope, religion is a real world thing, with real world buildings, real world books and real world people. I can see a church from where I am sitting.

The parts of religion in books, however, are all based entirely on fiction, so belong in the fiction section :)

Unless, of course, you're taling about religious buildings, which would be architecture, etc.
 
Ok, I see your point now, sorry. I should say that pretty much everything preached by religion as historical is fiction, or at least, very far from documented.

That would depend upon the religion though surely? Taking just the bible I would agree there are certainly many historical inaccuracies and stories which just could not be true. However it also has a fair number of possible historical events that are true. And if Jesus lived (putting aside any issue of his divinity) and was a preacher then large swathes of the bible could indeed be historically accurate when talking about his teachings. We just have no real way of knowing as there is no independant corroboration of his existence.

Of course this doesn't lend anything to the case for divinity or not as it would be very easy to incoporate real world events into an act of fiction.

Don't be so facetious. The concept of a religious God is easily disproved, or at least, is easily made to be extremely unlikely to exist. I obviously overestimated the level on which we were debating.

I think part of the problem is that we, as a western christian influenced society, generally see God to mean the abrahamic god of the bible and so any discussion with regards to the existence of a diety is going to be coloured by that. So religion is always going to get a look in somewhere from both sides of the arguement. But for the concept of a divine being of some description existing there is little real argument to be made as we just don't have enough information. There is also the school of thought that such a divine being could inspire the more mundane gods we do associate with religion. In effect God could exist, but the image with have of God is the anthropomorphising of a concept we have great difficulty describing at the current time.

However if you are talking to someone religious and trying to convince them that God does not exist then you are going to have to relate it to religion.
 
You still haven't proven that love exists.

Okay the love thing, Its a feeling we get right? So then the brain will most likely give off impulses when we're confronted with the ones we love versus people we distaste or people we feel nothing for. Each would give a different electrical impulse in the brain. A bit like certain pictures would.

Love is an electrical brain impulse, Along with hate, fear, anxiety and attraction.

Love and attraction come together in a package initially so maybe the love you feel for a partner stems from addiction. When you're attracted to someone your body increases levels of testosterone. If this is going on for months with a person could the increased testosterone levels have a reasoning for your longing for that person when she's not around.

I know that doesnt explain love for your own children, Thats instinctive nature at work. Which to be honest I know very little about.
 
That would depend upon the religion though surely? Taking just the bible I would agree there are certainly many historical inaccuracies and stories which just could not be true. However it also has a fair number of possible historical events that are true. And if Jesus lived (putting aside any issue of his divinity) and was a preacher then large swathes of the bible could indeed be historically accurate when talking about his teachings. We just have no real way of knowing as there is no independant corroboration of his existence.

Of course this doesn't lend anything to the case for divinity or not as it would be very easy to incoporate real world events into an act of fiction.
Well, Christianity is a plagiarism of Judaism, and Islam is a plagiarism of both Christianity and Judaism. I'm not well read enough on any of the three monotheistic canons to claim to be sure, yet. But I'm getting there. Could you name any of these historical events which are known to be true? There is no empirical evidence, whatsoever that Jesus ever existed, let alone was divine. You've got Socrates' writings to go on who again, isn't a historical figure (not so much of an issue though, as unlike Jesus, Socrates' ideas were important, not his actions), testimonies from epileptic prostitutes, and various other people. Nothing reliable or historical is what I'm trying to get at. Ignoring the concept of a virgin birth, the trip to Mount Sinai (which has been disproven by Israeli archeology), Noah's Ark, etc. And this really is just the tip of the iceberg.


I think part of the problem is that we, as a western christian influenced society, generally see God to mean the abrahamic god of the bible and so any discussion with regards to the existence of a diety is going to be coloured by that. So religion is always going to get a look in somewhere from both sides of the arguement. But for the concept of a divine being of some description existing there is little real argument to be made as we just don't have enough information. There is also the school of thought that such a divine being could inspire the more mundane gods we do associate with religion. In effect God could exist, but the image with have of God is the anthropomorphising of a concept we have great difficulty describing at the current time.

However if you are talking to someone religious and trying to convince them that God does not exist then you are going to have to relate it to religion.
Of course, we are heavily influenced by Westernised Christianity. Regardless of that though, we need to argue on the truest grounds available to us. Just because we've been influenced by so many religious falsehoods, doesn't make them true and as such, basing an argument about God on them debases the argument itself. It's fairly easy to reasonably and rationally disprove the concept of a God preached by any monotheistic religion.
 
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