Poll: The Last Leaders Debate – Live tonight at 2030 BST on BBC One

[Dolph]

How many people do you know with the time to set up their own school? One important footnote in the Conservative education plans (which I wouldn't know if it wasn't for Dolph pointing it out) is that they will allow private companies to start up their own schools too, so far from being parents setting up their own school it will be parents asking a company to do it for them.

Just out of interest, why do you think this is worse and more prone to abuse than the vampiric and unnecessary LEA system?

 

[aslco]

The Times and The Sun have been demonstrably pro-Labour for the past decade at least. "Regularly" is bs. They jumped ship as, like most of the country, they are disenchanted with Labour/Brown.

[IG]http://i39.tinypic.com/15rdpxh.png[/IMG]
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/417fa1a2-...uid=fdb2b318-aa9e-11d9-98d7-00000e2511c8.html

But, nevermind a? You keep with the anti-establishment down with Murdoch etc etc snore etc.

It was due to labour switching from the left though and i never saw much smearing against david cameron in all honesty so you can just stay believing that they had labour and their voters at heart

can you link me to some really influential labour supporting stories? and the voting percentages from the papers readers diddn't seem to swing that much from conservative anyway. The sun will always have labour voters though as mainly the 'working class' get it and they often buy such apaper for gossip. No surprise though to see theyve managed to almost get a 50/50 split between the readers of who they'd vote for despite 90% of them probably benefitting best from a labour government

Its Texas against an american NHS all over again.

 

[scorza]

Because they don't actually provide any real benefit, and indeed make the same mistake that regulators made with the credit reference agencies, namely changing something that should be a service for the buyer and therefore will naturally have a pessamistic outlook to something that works for the seller and therefore the competitive pressure is to be over optimistic.

The main benefit as I understand it is that it gets the local authority search done up front. Thankfully there is no harmful competition in the local authority search market

Because a better, fairer and more free education system is a bad thing why?

I don't think that will be the result of the privatisation of the education system. All the evidence I've seen is that privatised public services perform worse than government run ones.

 

[Dolph]

The main benefit as I understand it is that it gets the local authority search done up front. Thankfully there is no harmful competition in the local authority search market

But that could be done without the HIP, and the rest of it is just pointless (but expensive) crap.

I don't think that will be the result of the privatisation of the education system. All the evidence I've seen is that privatised public services perform worse than government run ones.

Yeah, I mean Bupa hospitals are terrible compared to NHS ones... The only time privatised services run worse is when the other structural flaws of monopoly public services are not addressed as part of the privatisation, which then leads to the problems of monopoly services combined with competition free private sector involvement. That is not the Tories policy on education.

 

[scorza]

Just out of interest, why do you think this is worse and more prone to abuse than the vampiric and unnecessary LEA system?

Well for a start it will take a lot of money out of the state education system, as admitted by Conservative run Kent County Council LEA. This will naturally make the state education system worse, in turn making more free schools likely. The logical conclusion is the death of the state education system. Mark my words - we'll end up with a oligopoly of school providers for the entire country, providing a lower quality of service for more money.

 

[Yas786]

And me.

And me

 

[Fuzz]

Good article in the independent this morning.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...icle-vote-for-change-real-change-1960288.html

 

[Dolph]

Well for a start it will take a lot of money out of the state education system, as admitted by Conservative run Kent County Council LEA. This will naturally make the state education system worse, in turn making more free schools likely. The logical conclusion is the death of the state education system. Mark my words - we'll end up with a oligopoly of school providers for the entire country, providing a lower quality of service for more money.

Your conclusion is nothing more than ideological supposition, and the rest of your points are somewhat misrepresentative.

Free schools will not 'take money' out of the state education system, that implies that free schools are not replacing state schools in any way, or taking any pupils that the state system takes. That isn't the case.

I fully agree with the idea that ensuring access to education does not require the state to supply education, that centralised control is inefficient and that enforced standardisation has only led to everything being dragged down to the lowest level.

I feel sorry for the kids that you wish to punish by putting your ideology in front of their advancement by continuing with an ineffective and structurally flawed system and refusing to consider any alternatives.

 

[scorza]

But that could be done without the HIP, and the rest of it is just pointless (but expensive) crap.

But it wasn't done before the introduction of the HIP. As I understand it, the only other significant thing in the HIP is the energy efficiency statement, which I agree is pointless. I think that the main cost portion of the HIP is getting the local authority search done up front.

Another benefit is that because the seller is required to make an up front payment, then they are making a commitment that they really do want to sell their home.

Yeah, I mean Bupa hospitals are terrible compared to NHS ones... The only time privatised services run worse is when the other structural flaws of monopoly public services are not addressed as part of the privatisation, which then leads to the problems of monopoly services combined with competition free private sector involvement. That is not the Tories policy on education.

BUPA only works because of the NHS, and I think they'd be the first to admit this. If there were no NHS then they'd be exposed to harmful competition from other healthcare providers, resulting in the more expensive, less effective service that we see in the USA.

 

[Dolph]

But it wasn't done before the introduction of the HIP. As I understand it, the only other significant thing in the HIP is the energy efficiency statement, which I agree is pointless. I think that the main cost portion of the HIP is getting the local authority search done up front.

Another benefit is that because the seller is required to make an up front payment, then they are making a commitment that they really do want to sell their home.

None of that requires government legislation, it's just another example of pointless Labour nanny-statism... If buyers wanted that, they could simply have asked the seller to do it...

BUPA only works because of the NHS, and I think they'd be the first to admit this. If there were no NHS then they'd be exposed to harmful competition from other healthcare providers, resulting in the more expensive, less effective service that we see in the USA.

Or alternatively, like the much more effective services in Europe where the majority of healthcare provision is privately provided but funded through mandatory insurance... Ensuring access does not require the state to run the entire setup, nor is the state running the entire setup in any way beneficial to the public.

 

[scorza]

Your conclusion is nothing more than ideological supposition, and the rest of your points are somewhat misrepresentative.

Free schools will not 'take money' out of the state education system, that implies that free schools are not replacing state schools in any way, or taking any pupils that the state system takes. That isn't the case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8640576.stm

As I said, Paul Carter, leader of Kent County Council didn't agree until Conservative party enforcers got on the case.

I fully agree with the idea that ensuring access to education does not require the state to supply education, that centralised control is inefficient and that enforced standardisation has only led to everything being dragged down to the lowest level.

I feel sorry for the kids that you wish to punish by putting your ideology in front of their advancement by continuing with an ineffective and structurally flawed system and refusing to consider any alternatives.

There are many good state schools as well as a lot of bad ones, the system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that it should be destroyed, merely tweaked instead. The countries with the best education systems are all state run.

 

[RDM]

Well for a start it will take a lot of money out of the state education system, as admitted by Conservative run Kent County Council LEA. This will naturally make the state education system worse, in turn making more free schools likely. The logical conclusion is the death of the state education system. Mark my words - we'll end up with a oligopoly of school providers for the entire country, providing a lower quality of service for more money.

Denmark seems to do quite well with a system similar to what the conservatives are proposing.

 

[scorza]

None of that requires government legislation, it's just another example of pointless Labour nanny-statism... If buyers wanted that, they could simply have asked the seller to do it...

Err no because no seller would have agreed to do it.

 

[Dolph]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8640576.stm

As I said, Paul Carter, leader of Kent County Council didn't agree until Conservative party enforcers got on the case.

Oh no, some people have different views... Perhaps we should unleash 'the forces of hell' on those who say things that we disagree with. Wait, no... Not labour.

There are many good state schools as well as a lot of bad ones, the system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that it should be destroyed, merely tweaked instead. The countries with the best education systems are all state run.

Perhaps, but they also involve grammar school style splits of the type so hated by those who also so oppose the Tories policies in the UK...

 

[Dolph]

Err no because no seller would have agreed to do it.

They would if all buyers refused to buy until they did. Your understanding of the market and market forces does seem massively flawed at times, perhaps that explains why you keep supporting inferior systems and authoritarian measures when market forces don't achieve what you think is desirable (but all those in the market do not).

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Err no because no seller would have agreed to do it.

The sellers weren't asked. It was brought in without proper consultation, and the representative bodies (those that represent the sellers - estate agents) have spent their time advocating against it.

 

[meghatronic]

Anyone watching the Politics show on BBC1? David Miliband, William Hague and Ed Davey in front of a panel of undecided voters.

Hague did really well I thought, and Miliband did okay - he was clearly embarrassed with the soldier's mum thing. Davey, like the LibDems we know and love, told a few lies (amnesty, 80% EU migration, tax etc)

 

[Hatter The Mad]

As we can see, with the single exception of Japan, we in the UK have a bigger mountain to climb than anyone else. According to Citi's analysis we need to tighten fiscal policy by a whopping 12% of GDP. In plain English, that means the next government needs to cut spending or increase taxes by £180bn pa (in today's money). Which in round numbers is the equivalent of:

£7000 pa extra taxes/ lower spending per household;

increase in the basic rate of income tax to 65p; or

increase in the standard rate of VAT to 57%; or

25% off total public spending; or

a combination of all of the above

 

[scorza]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/02/conservatives-philippa-stroud-gay-cure

Interesting article on one of the people shaping Conservative party policy.

A high-flying prospective Conservative MP, credited with shaping many of the party's social policies, founded a church that tried to "cure" homosexuals by driving out their "demons" through prayer.

Philippa Stroud, who is likely to win the Sutton and Cheam seat on Thursday and is head of the Centre for Social Justice, the thinktank set up by the former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith, has heavily influenced David Cameron's beliefs on subjects such as the family. A popular and energetic Tory, she is seen as one of the party's rising stars.

 

[rypt]

Not to sound a homophobe, but homosexuality is unnatural (in the Biological sense), and afaik there hasn't been a genetic explanation for it as yet.