Does God cause suffering??

icysniper said:
is there any evidence to show that there is life after death:confused::)
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Not the kind of evidence that you would like. I can't arrange for you to see a dead person be brought back to life whilst you watch.

The evidence I work on is a firm belief that the Bible is accurate when describing God's abilities and past actions.

Thus it is important for me to have faith in the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible as a whole.
 
We're told 'God made us in his own image'. :rolleyes:
So that's why we do everything we do. Good and bad.

Any other explanation is just the nutters trying to wriggle their way around and out of that.

(He must be a right ******* then.)

That's my shot at Heaven gone. :D
 
maustin said:
How about the cases where the parents have faith in science and cause unnecessary suffering as they keep putting their child through operation after operation because they will not let go because they see nothing but emptiness on the other side. I can tell you I see this far more at work than the potential scenario you have highlighted.
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But these operations normally won't end in death very often, and nearly everyone wouldn't put their children through such unless it was completely necessary, let alone would the doctors let them do so.

It's not really giving them faith overall though, they know the risks if something were to go wrong, they know what can happen if something takes a turn for the worst. They obviously have some degree of faith that the operations would be okay and their children would come out suffering less than they originally were. The way I mentioned with god almost always ends with months of agony for the person and inevitably death.

Could you imagine suffering something like cancer for months with no drugs and no relief, all the pain you would be in day after day, with the only thing you're being given is lies that "God will cure you".
 
FoxEye said:
Not the kind of evidence that you would like. I can't arrange for you to see a dead person be brought back to life whilst you watch.

The evidence I work on is a firm belief that the Bible is accurate when describing God's abilities and past actions.

Thus it is important for me to have faith in the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible as a whole.
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yeh lol, would be very useful if you could, hmm tbh I dont see the bible to be a reliable source as it is very sketchy and can be translated/interpreted in many ways.

c@tbyte said:
We're told 'God made us in his own image'. :rolleyes:
So that's why we do everything we do. Good and bad.

Any other explanation is just the nutters trying to wriggle their way around and out of that.

(He must be a right ******* then.)

That's my shot at Heaven gone. :D
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hmm yeh good point, so we are like God, good and bad :p:D

msm722 said:
God dumped us here and left us to our own demise.
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hmm seems like he has ;)
 
RDM said:
Still not God though.
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Indirectly it is, there is no way directly god could cause suffering, just the extreme people being idiots (As usual).

It's like, it doesn't matter if I harm someone directly or indirectly, I've still harmed them at the end of the day and I can't claim because it was only done indirectly, that it doesn't matter.
 
Aedus said:
Indirectly it is, there is no way directly god could cause suffering, just the extreme people being idiots (As usual).
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Well if he does exist, then yes, there are plenty of ways he can act directly and cause suffering. The bible is full of examples of direct action. Assuming it is the same god (the one that sent his own son down to suffer for us, another example) then he can intervene whenever he wants.

Also as God created the world he also created the natural stuff that causes suffering on a huge scale. Malaria, God's work. Tsunami, God's work.

Aedus said:
It's like, it doesn't matter if I harm someone directly or indirectly, I've still harmed them at the end of the day and I can't claim because it was only done indirectly, that it doesn't matter.
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But you example isn't really an indirect example of God, it is some peoples belief in God, which considering the vast majority of Christians are quite happy to have medical treatment, is not really something you can pin on God himself.
 
Does God cause suffering?

Yes

Why?

Because when Adam and Eve ignored Gods 1 rule of not eating the fruit from the forbidden Tree, He then kicked them from the garden of eden, and introduced them to work, suffering and death.

We are all descendants of Adam, and we are all sinners from birth. We have to redeem ourselves in life in the eyes of God inorder to be granted a place in heaven. Where life is eternal...

*Sings a hymn*

I'm agnostic btw :p
 
Aedus said:
But these operations normally won't end in death very often, and nearly everyone wouldn't put their children through such unless it was completely necessary, let alone would the doctors let them do so.
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I never mentioned death I stated suffering. Parents will do pretty much everything they can in such a situation. Doctors will do pretty much everything we can do to facilitate them up to quite a high threshold for a variety of reasons (it's nurses that balance this in the main not the doctors).

Aedus said:
It's not really giving them faith overall though, they know the risks if something were to go wrong, they know what can happen if something takes a turn for the worst. They obviously have some degree of faith that the operations would be okay and their children would come out suffering less than they originally were. The way I mentioned with god almost always ends with months of agony for the person and inevitably death.
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The way you mentioned is concocted conjecture and I have never ever seen or heard of such a case. The only issue I have come across is that with JW which is very rarely followed-through and well dealt with usually by following established protocol.

Aedus said:
Could you imagine suffering something like cancer for months with no drugs and no relief, all the pain you would be in day after day, with the only thing you're being given is lies that "God will cure you".
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I thought I made it quite clear what I was on about by using the word "unnecessary".

If you can point me to such cases as you describe then fire away. If someone was to do such it straight away becomes a child-protection issue. So I really think what you are describing is a myth.
 
RDM said:
But you example isn't really an indirect example of God, it is some peoples belief in God, which considering the vast majority of Christians are quite happy to have medical treatment, is not really something you can pin on God himself.
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How about this for an example:

I tell someone "You should take these drugs, they are amazing." I don't have these drugs myself, but I tell them exactly what they are.
Their belief of what I say to them causes them to get these drugs, in-turn they take them and die.

Indirectly I've caused them to die, because their belief in what I've told them has caused them to go out, get these drugs, take them and they have died as a result. Would I have nothing to have done with the persons death? Would the blame be totally on the person who supplied the drugs? or on the person who believed my word and went out and got them?

In my view, I'd be responsible, because I put the belief in the persons head in the first place, if I wouldn't have they would have never gone out to get these drugs and thus would still be alive.

I could have intervened and taken the drugs off of the person before they died, but I didn't.
 
wannabedamned said:
Does God cause suffering?

Yes

Why?

Because when Adam and Eve ignored Gods 1 rule of not eating the fruit from the forbidden Tree, He then kicked them from the garden of eden, and introduced them to work, suffering and death.

We are all descendants of Adam, and we are all sinners from birth. We have to redeem ourselves in life in the eyes of God inorder to be granted a place in heaven. Where life is eternal...

*Sings a hymn*

I'm agnostic btw :p
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Couldn't you instead say that Adam and Eve cause suffering?
Or that the forbidden tree cause suffering?

The Bible says God made the tree, and he made humans. He knew the tree would cause humans suffering if they ate from it, so he told them "don't eat from it, you'll die".

They ate from it.

I can't conclude that God caused the suffering.

If I build a fire in my fireplace and light it to warm the house, that can burn a child. So I tell the child "don't put your hand in the fire, you'll get burned."

The child puts his hand in the fire and gets burned. Did I cause the suffering by lighting the fire to warm the house? Did the fire cause the suffering?

Or was it the disobedient child?
 
The way I see it you're already making an assumption to ask this question. Hard to disprove if God exists or not, which is the beauty of the whole concept :) However as there are multiple religions all claiming their God is the one true God only one can be right, odds are they're all wrong...
 
Troezar said:
The way I see it you're already making an assumption to ask this question. Hard to disprove if God exists or not, which is the beauty of the whole concept :) However as there are multiple religions all claiming their God is the one true God only one can be right, odds are they're all wrong...
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completely agree +1 :)
 
FoxEye said:
If I build a fire in my fireplace and light it to warm the house, that can burn a child. So I tell the child "don't put your hand in the fire, you'll get burned."

The child puts his hand in the fire and gets burned. Did I cause the suffering by lighting the fire to warm the house? Did the fire cause the suffering?

Or was it the disobedient child?
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There's 100 people in a forest, All with buckets of water. I throw a match, and set a fire. If everyone used those buckets of water the fire would go out, but some chose not to use them. And so the forest burnt down.

Who's the cause of the fire? The people who chose to not use their buckets, or the person who threw the match.

Suffering was essentially an on\off switch. God threw it. He's the direct cause
 
Troezar said:
The way I see it you're already making an assumption to ask this question. Hard to disprove if God exists or not, which is the beauty of the whole concept :) However as there are multiple religions all claiming their God is the one true God only one can be right, odds are they're all wrong...
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Do you mean the question of whether god causes suffering? Because in that case no, we're not assuming anything. The fact that people believe in some sort of god has implications, thus forming a basis for the question.

Yea, if we're talking about adam and eve then we're making assumptions. But that's not really the point of the thread's question..
 
Aedus said:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/05/faith_healing_or_spiritual_abuse.html
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For one there is very little detail there. So again I would doubt that we are getting the whole story. Yes it is being spun as religiously motivated but they also quite explicitly state "other reasons". Except it was the religious ones that were singled out.

In a grand scale of overall non-compliance then such isolated incidents are to be expected as they do occur for homeopathy etc. But that hardly is religion specific. Again in a long medical career in mainly paediatrics I have never seen or heard of such a case. Non-compliance is rife of course for a variety of reasons but not such as these isolated incidents from the US as you have linked there.

What are your thoughts on the other points I raised?
 
Sorry, haven't read all the replies, but there's a couple of points I think you may find relevant. Just to set my stall out, I've studied philosophy post grad and have my Masters in Natural Philosophy - this particular question is a fascinating one and one I've personally been struggling with for years.

The points I'd raise are:

Religion and belief in Deity or conceptual 'god'
I believe it is a mistake to mix the two as more often than not people are talking about opposing ideas. You talk religion with somebody and typically they start thinking and talking about organizations, rather than spirituality behind the ideas of a deity.

Does god cause suffering?
There's different ways to look at this issue. What if there wasn't any suffering? To be blunt - there would be no point. There would be no progress or development. Needs must if you will.

You can match the requirement to progress against the requirement not to suffer.

The progression on this though is 'why does god allow suffering?'. Again I'd suggest looking at it another way. What if god did not allow suffering? You're back at the 'no point' argument. Tie this to the idea then that god 'allows' earthquakes then, and volcano eruptions - natural disasters that have cost millions of lives over the years?

...again there's another way to view it - very much based on the idea of change is good (i.e. for progress). What if 'he' didn't allow natural disasters? Well, in the case of earthquakes (crust renewal), volcano eruptions (again crust renewal), flooding (ground soil enrichment) there would be no progress. The nutrients would be eventually removed, plants would die, and the world would dry up.

Natural change is absolutely essential for the survival of life. You can really see how people matched the events directly to human survival and prosperity can't you?

The trick to writing a good, interesting, and challenging essay about such a subject is to tackle the points directly from both a theological and from a natural standpoint. By natural I mean natural science of life/matter evolution.

I've no issue with people's spirituality and their need/want/preference to believe in a deity - whatever it's form. I do have an issue with organised religion pushing it's often ridiculous and unfounded ideas on me. If you feel a little inflamed by that then please read it again :p

You could have a lot of fun with such a question :D
 
wannabedamned said:
There's 100 people in a forest, All with buckets of water. I throw a match, and set a fire. If everyone used those buckets of water the fire would go out, but some chose not to use them. And so the forest burnt down.

Who's the cause of the fire? The people who chose to not use their buckets, or the person who threw the match.

Suffering was essentially an on\off switch. God threw it. He's the direct cause
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I'm sorry but your analogy doesn't fit the Biblical account.

God didn't force-feed Adam and Eve death-apples. He warned them about the death-apples, and told them not to eat them, because they'd die.

He could just as easily have told them "don't jump off this cliff here, you'll die when you hit the rocks at the bottom."

He didn't throw them off the cliff or kill them by any other direct action. He simply said "this here tree will kill you. better not eat from it".
 
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