Nuclear weapons & racism

So much anti semitism in this forum (and in general)

semi-pro waster said:
I don't think we should hold up the Iron Lady as a model of tolerance and goodwill to all men somehow, she was also good friends with General Pinochet (amongst others no doubt) if memory serves me so the company she keeps or kept is dubious to say the least.
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So it is ok to judge Israel by it's leaders in the 1970s, but not ok to judge the UK by Margaret Thatcher?

stockhausen said:
However, this does rather miss the point that Israel's possession of nuclear weapons is conveniently overlooked in the West. Perhaps if Israel didn't possess a massive nuclear article and the means to use it, probably over a range of more than 1,000 miles range there would be less incentive for the Iranians to develop them as a deterrent against a potential Israeli nuclear strike :confused:
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Well seeing as Israel has never used (or been even close to using, as far as I know) using nuclear weapons, despite having the capability and massive Arab countries who hate them and want to rid them, I wouldn't consider it a problem. What is Iran's problem with Israel having nuclear capabilities, unless if they want to do something which would provoke Israel to use them?

mmj_uk said:
It's amazing what a bit of media propaganda can do even to this day people see Iran as a country frothing at the mouth to nuke the Jews, despite the fact that they have the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East.
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So Iran isn't antisemetic? Tbh, Israel gets more than it's fair share of bad publicity and propaganda
 
ordinaryjoe said:
The OP... Would this thread have existed if Russia had sold nuclear weapons to South Africa? I doubt it
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Ok, what you dont seem to realise is that there is a big difference between being Anti-Isreali in terms of their foreign policy and being Anti-Semetic.

I notice this trend is increasingly lately with certain Jews seeiming to think that if you dont agree with everything Isreal does then you are automatically labelled an anti-semite.

It really grinds my gears too, because like on one hand you have these same ones complaining loudly about their harsh treatment in the past from anti-semites (most notably the Nazi's), but then on the other hand its like they're using it as a kinda crutch to support Israels increasingly aggressive stance to her neighbours. By labelling people that disagree an anti-semite on these grounds you are simply seeking to tar them with the same brush, for the some purpose of discrediting their opinions, as lets face it, no-one wants to be seen as being on the same footing as the Nazis.

I find it sickening.
 
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ordinaryjoe said:
The OP... Would this thread have existed if Russia had sold nuclear weapons to South Africa? I doubt it
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And the op has been shouted down by the majority of the posters (like he usually is)

So this thread is really against your point not for it.
 
mmj_uk said:
The correct translation was that the Israeli regime should disappear from the pages of time
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yes erased from history sounds so much nicer than wiped off the map.



How exactly is "disappear from the pages of time" used in Iran in general?

Is it used in the context of "we should negotiate and change things" or is it used in the same context as "wiped of the map" is in the west?

Literal translations are useless without knowing the local colloquialisms and sayings.
 
stockhausen said:
However, this does rather miss the point that Israel's possession of nuclear weapons is conveniently overlooked in the West. Perhaps if Israel didn't possess a massive nuclear article and the means to use it, probably over a range of more than 1,000 miles range there would be less incentive for the Iranians to develop them as a deterrent against a potential Israeli nuclear strike :confused:
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So how big a nuclear article are we talking about? A page? 10 pages? Maybe an entire book? :)
 
Le_Petit_Lapin said:
Ok, what you dont seem to realise is that there is a big difference between being Anti-Isreali in terms of their foreign policy and being Anti-Semetic.
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My point is that this thread would not have existed if it was Russia's idea to sell South Africa nuclear weapons in the 1970s... So are people just against Israel and not the Jews living in it? A country is very much its people.
 
ordinaryjoe said:
The OP... Would this thread have existed if Russia had sold nuclear weapons to South Africa? I doubt it
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Oh grow up, once you've done that go look up antisemitism, pointing out that Israel have been in the past and still are at times hypocritical, paranoid idiots does not constitute antisemitism because it's got sod all to do with them being Jewish, it's more to do with them being hypocritical, paranoid idiots.

Offering to sell nuclear weapons to an international pariah (who shortly afterwards became subject to a compulsory arms embargo) was a fairly irresponsible thing to do.

Does it undermine their case against Iranian possession of weapons? Quite probably, certainly it doesn't do the argument that they can't be trusted and the weapons could end up in terrorist hands no good when Israel make it.

SA also didn't want those weapons for fun, they seemingly had scenarios where their use would have been acceptable (again Angola for instance).
 
bigredshark said:
Oh grow up
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Nice

bigredshark said:
once you've done that go look up antisemitism, pointing out that Israel have been in the past and still are at times hypocritical, paranoid idiots does not constitute antisemitism because it's got sod all to do with them being Jewish, it's more to do with them being hypocritical, paranoid idiots.
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Well what have Israel done so bad in the past which the US or UK haven't done? Surely, the UK is just as hypocritical... The Iraq war anyone? And how are Israel paranoid? Would you not be concerned if countries wanted to take your country off the map (or erase them from time)? And they haven't exactly reacted by attacking Iran have they... hardly paranoid.

And also, Jews are hypocritical paranoid idiots now? ;)
 
ordinaryjoe said:
My point is that this thread would not have existed if it was Russia's idea to sell South Africa nuclear weapons in the 1970s... So are people just against Israel and not the Jews living in it? A country is very much its people.
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No, the OP could very well have a problem with Israel's foreign policy on nuclear weapons, and not be anti-semetic. In your last post you suggested that the OP was an anti-semite simply because he didnt agree with Isreals foreign policy 30 years ago.

Would you therefore also call me a racist if I for some reason or another took a negative view on something that I dunno, pick any country, Japan for example, done 30 years ago and made a thread about it? I seem to remember that there was a thread recently on the terror camps run by Japan in the Second world War. I guess the OP of that thread hates all Japs?

Hell, go to speakers corner, plenty of threads in there about Iran. I guess all the OP's of those threads are 100% Anti-Iranian and want the county to burn?

ordinaryjoe said:
And also, Jews are hypocritical paranoid idiots now? ;)
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Yep, some definately are.
 
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Ok ok fine... no one's antisemetic but people seem to always exaggerate anything bad Israel does when other countries would get away with it... That's what I meant and I was wrong to say people are antisemetic

(and I'm not being sarcastic, despite admitting I'm wrong on the Internet :eek:)
 
ordinaryjoe said:
Well what have Israel done so bad in the past which the US or UK haven't done? Surely, the UK is just as hypocritical... The Iraq war anyone? And how are Israel paranoid? Would you not be concerned if countries wanted to take your country off the map (or erase them from time)? And they haven't exactly reacted by attacking Iran have they... hardly paranoid.
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On the other hand they have attacked (likely) Syria and (more historically) Iraq for far far less (Syria in particular was quite disturbing).

And yes we're just as bad selling weapons to regimes which them use them primarily to keep their own people in line but this isn't a wholesale comparison and it it was it would remain the case we've never sold weapons of mass destruction to anyone, let alone countries like SA back then.

And they didn't go to buy them from Israel because they liked them, they did it because they were likely the only game in town, no way the US, UK or France would sell to them, they were at war with Soviet proxies and China were crazy paranoid. I can't see apartheid buying much from India or Pakistan which leaves Israel as the only game in town.

Israel should be far more ashamed of their relationship with SA back then but at the time they were too busy profiting from it (it's a big factor in their arms industry getting started) and they seemingly remain completely unable to admit they have ever had any faults at all as a nation.

EDIT: I'm highlighting that last bit because it's why people are particularly intolerant of Israel in my view, they can't say sorry or even admit regret so every little thing they've ever done wrong is still piled up against them. Look at the passports fiasco - have they actually yet said "we're sorry, we were wrong to forge documents belonging to other countries"?
 
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stockhausen said:
Without in any way wanting either to support or question your bizarre apparent suggestion that the ANC had a significant Jewish membership, I would certainly agree that there are many Jews who are not supportive of the racist "Jewish State" - they are all of course rabid "anti-Semites" :rolleyes:
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The ANC was incubated by the communists and has strong links with the SACP (South African Communist Party), which was run by Jews. It's common knowledge there.

Most of the most vocal activists, journalists etc were Jewish, like Orlando Bloom's dad for example.

WINSTON CHURCHILL wrote an essay about this subject.

"Zionism vs Bolshevism"

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism
 
ordinaryjoe said:
So it is ok to judge Israel by it's leaders in the 1970s, but not ok to judge the UK by Margaret Thatcher?
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I think you may be reading rather too much into my comment - my views on Margaret Thatcher do not necessarily imply that judging any nation because of acts or omissions by its past leaders would be a good way to go.

If you want to judge the UK by Margaret Thatcher then it's fair (or perhaps I should say not unfair) to judge other nations by their past leaders but it's not something I'd choose to do - any nation can be a bit unlucky with the people they've had in charge. Also on that point where should we draw the line when holding these people to account for prior leaders - is there a cut off date of 20, 50, 200 years or some other measure entirely?

For whatever it is worth I've got very little in the way of formed opinions about the Israel-Palestine conflict, I don't feel I know enough to have a definite opinion beyond believing that both sides are far from innocent in the situation.
 
regulus said:
Stupid original post. Comparing South Africa to Iran. While apartheid was disgusting (for the lack of a better descriptive word), SA hardly threatened war or was run by warmongering lunatics.
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Anyone care to name a war started by Iran?
 
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