Girl crushed to death by electric gate.

maccapacca said:
Sorry but what you are saying is a load of tosh

You should consider what the intent of the product is for and what the surrounding environment is for, housing = kids / disabled / general public / emergency services etc, I think the CDM regs cover this. We have to consider all of those, as I said previously consideration should have been given to the Gneral Public

The £20k gate as I described before is suitable for entrances to industrial units etc but a residential gate should have the additional safety features installed, they are there as an option for a reason, what has happened is either the safety features wern't working allthough the gate should never have been working = fail safe or they were never put on as to expensive, all of £5k
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Thanks for your aggressive first line most appreciated. :)

I agree that in private homes and private garages etc... having an IR beam or a clutch system is sensible. I don't deny that for a moment.

And possibly this gate is based around similar circumstances...

However, my general point is, that security gates (if they are designed to be security gates) shouldn't need any override facility (apart from the security office who can override/control the gates). Admittedly, I would say that rather than continuing to burn out the motor it should just stop as it;'s expensive to fix a motor and needless waste, however it shouldn't need to retract - it should stay at the position it's been blocked.

Though as has been said, most gates are merely for deterring chancers and stealing cars from the premises.

My point wasn't necessarily about THIS particular gate, but gates designed for security have warnings on them - if people are stupid enough to try and climb over/under/past them when they are in operation then it's their responsibility.

Clearly the poor little girl didn't understand the concept that this would cause her serious (and unfortunately fatal) injuries, but then should she have been playing around that area where cars are driving in and out of in the first place?

It sounds cold from me, and I don't mean to be, however I just feel the gate's design was fit for purpose.
 
Freefaller said:
however I just feel the gate's design was fit for purpose.
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Sorry excuse the first line of the previous it something I deal with every day

It can't be fit for purpose if someone has been killed, fit for purpose is a very wide statement, a concrete block with a winch and tackle is fit for purpose if the purpose is stopping cars entering.

We have a duty of care and also we have to be reasonable on a residential estate, we have just installed bi fold gates at an academy in London that we also had to spend extra £ss on because of duty of care to the students, most residential estates now incorporate external landscaping soft and hard which mix with the vehicle areas, there should have been more consideration (I am assuming they didn't) to protection of the general public.

If I build a 7 floor balcony do I have to put 1100mm high with 100mm spaced bars high railings around it or in your mind is a sign saying warning death would be sufficient
 
I fail to see how an inanimate object can be a death trap, unless of course said object were a spiked pit.
 
maccapacca said:
Sorry excuse the first line of the previous it something I deal with every day

It can't be fit for purpose if someone has been killed, fit for purpose is a very wide statement, a concrete block with a winch and tackle is fit for purpose if the purpose is stopping cars entering.

We have a duty of care and also we have to be reasonable on a residential estate, we have just installed bi fold gates at an academy in London that we also had to spend extra £ss on because of duty of care to the students, most residential estates now incorporate external landscaping soft and hard which mix with the vehicle areas, there should have been more consideration (I am assuming they didn't) to protection of the general public.

If I build a 7 floor balcony do I have to put 1100mm high with 100mm spaced bars high railings around it or in your mind is a sign saying warning death would be sufficient
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Apology accepted - and I understand your frustration :)

I guess we work in slightly different industries (mine being the security services) and for me a gate is something designed to block and prevent rather than worry about injury. So I guess we're talking at cross purposes and probasbly why we're getting irritated by one another - fair comment? :)

As for integrating the public and vehicles, well IMO it's a fairly poor design if there is no segregation or safe passage within the area.

As for the example of railings, well there's a statutory regulation that has to be done, it's sensible, and clearly putting a sign up is not necessary as one would hope that most adults would be aware of the dangers, and secondly that they wouldn't let small kids out onto the balcony! I'm just not a big fan of H&S madness - although it may shock you that I do have my NEBOSH certificate - but that's mainly for work.

Rather than go mad on regulation, can we not just agree that there is some human responsibility for one's own safety rather than looking for blame on everything?
 
Freefaller said:
can we not just agree that there is some human responsibility for one's own safety rather than looking for blame on everything?
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Yeah suppose but it sounds like you deal with semi intelligent people, 50% of the population have below average intelligence and that's who we generaly deal with the general public
 
haha! I don't know, you should see some of the guys! :p

It's a good point, and thanks for giving the other side of the coin, that is so easy to forget when you don't deal with it from day to day. :)

I still feel though, that blaming the gate for doing what's it designed for is not quite right. It's down to poor planning of the company for not fitting sensors if the gates are unmanned or the design of the property for not having a supervisor or pedestrian gate.

I think this is just one of those horrid things called an "accident". They happen and it's tragic, and no one should lose their life for something so trivial.
 
maccapacca said:
Yeah suppose but it sounds like you deal with semi intelligent people, 50% of the population have below average intelligence and that's who we generaly deal with the general public
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Cant help but feel that we shouldnt actually be protecting those 50% of people. When people feel safe they dont pay as much attention. We already have a society that never assigns blame to an individual for their stupidity.

I feel for the mother but at the end of the day, kids play and it is your responsibility to ensure that they are safe. We did loads of stupid things when we were younger but my mums attitude when I got hurt was that I should have been more careful.

Now im not saying that if I was killed then she would feel the same way, but some things are unavoidable if you have enough people doing the stupid thing and one of them is a little lower down on the darwin scales.
 
fez said:
snip.
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The gate is still on a site so the HSE have been called and the way they investigate, and I have been involved in a couple, they will look for what more could have been done and why didn't the developer / contractor do it, the wrong answer to the HSE is cost so they will have to explain why they didn't instal a safety feature that may be seen as a duty of care
 
maccapacca said:
The gate is still on a site so the HSE have been called and the way they investigate, and I have been involved in a couple, they will look for what more could have been done and why didn't the developer / contractor do it, the wrong answer to the HSE is cost so they will have to explain why they didn't instal a safety feature that may be seen as a duty of care
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People can always do more. There is a classic bit in futurama where bender is flying a new titanic with 3000 hulls and he still gashes the side and spills the oil inside. Fry then says 'if only they had built it with 3001 hulls.

Point being, you can always do more, but at what stage have you made it safe enough.

I have seen loads of bridges over roads that have high sides because apparently people jump off them. Seems a bit silly to me, if I wanted to jump to my death I wouldnt throw in the towel after my chosen bridge was sealed off.
 
fez said:
Point being, you can always do more, but at what stage have you made it safe enough..
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My argument is, I'm not going to say industry standard as I said about commercial premises but residential standards and hospitals schools etc would have expected leading edge protection (kill switches(excuse the pun)) and also mesh panels to prevent arms from being trapped, thats standard stuff now on resi developments
 
Yeah stuck up another thead not knowing this one was up about the death today. Wonder why this has happend twice within such a short period of time and when there will be a warning put out to keep the kids away from gates
 
Just coincidence and the fact that its been reported by the media already meaning the public have it at the front of their mind i.e. its now more relevant.

Same thing happened with the 2nd reported fox attack on a kid. He got nipped on the arm after reaching through a hedge or something and grabbing its tail.... Would never have been heard of if it wasn't for the more serious attack on the 2 kiddies a few days before.


Edit: now, suddenly, the townies have woken up and its no more cuddly Basil Brush type comparisons with foxes.... Country folks have known this for years...
 
TangoSixteen said:
I must admit, I lol'd @ this.

Damn kids, always think they are so clever. The lesson here is dont play with someone elses gates.

Darwinism at work.
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Sorry, but what crap.

I had a very unexpected and nasty incident with an electric gate last year. The gate was closing at a friends house and he said 'put your foot in the way' to stop it closing. He actually meant the sensor, but not thinking much of it I put my foot between the gate and the wall - foolish, but holy crap, I'm glad I still have my foot. They close with unbelievable force, totally unnessesary. Had to get two friends to yank me out of the damn thing. The gate wouldn't go back the other way until it was in the fully closed possition :shock:

You wouldn't believe how dangerous the bog standard electric gate can be and I certainly wouldn't be overly critical of anyone that suffered even worse misfortune.
 
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had a wander down to the gate yesterday, the actual gate it happened at was pretty saddening, loads of flowers/teddies and a picture of the little girl, as is to be expected I suppose. All the other gates on the estate are currently chained open. The one in question was right at the edge of the completed bit, with an active building site right next to it, nowhere near obvious that something could go wrong, guess it was faulty in one way or another (if this hasn't already been made obvious)
 
Tefal said:
couple of ton of steel moving at anything like a reasonable pace is always going to carry a lot of force and take a lot to stop.
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This gate was by no means particuarly big or look like it would pack such force. Easily could have broken someones arm or cave in somebodies chest, surprised all of us.
 
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