Anyone else intrigued by the Prius/Hybrids

Peerzy said:
Thought he was talking about a Prius!

Either way my point still stands, I use to thrash my 1.2 petrol Punto about and never saw below 48mpg.

How can 10 years on, a car only slightly bigger, that has a hybrid engine only just about reach the same figures?

I know it's more down to CO2 but to be honest as a driver I couldn't care how much CO2 comes out of my car.
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CO2 and MPG are in direct correlation, the NEDC cycle doesnt measure fuel burnt, just CO2 created and measures that back as proportional MPG.

The Prius is a vastly larger car than a Punto aswell as offering better NVH, comfort and base specification and reaches a similar figure to a lightweight Punto is not a bad thing :confused:

I can thrash mine around aswell and still not get below 65mpg..... 10 years on.... blah blah. Much quicker than a 1.2 Punto aswell. :)
 
rypt said:
How is it not flawed, a diesel will produce better MPG than a Hybrid over any meaningful sized trip, this a diesel uses less oil (which will run out one day) ...

Hybrids are just a stupid thing at the moment, what is needed is an electric car with a small diesel generator, rather than the current crop of hybrids
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Was waiting for the bulldozer to arrive :D

The NEDC is not a meaningful sized trip.... and then we're on to inner city could be some distance aswell, certainly inside average use mileage.

You may aswell have a 50mpg petrol hybrid you can buy now or you need a 100mpg diesel for sale if peak oil is something that you raise as a concern.

The car you just described is a Series HYBRID. It wont be a diesel generator either no need when you can run a nice quiet petrol at 3600rpm and get BSFC in the region of 210 g/kWh with less weight, NVH and emission concerns.
 
2001 Audi A2 1.2 TDI 94.2mpg. (Not sold in the UK)
2000 Audi A2 1.4 TDI 65.7mpg.

Not come very far in 10 years!
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Was waiting for the bulldozer to arrive :D

The NEDC is not a meaningful sized trip.... and then we're on to inner city could be some distance aswell, certainly inside average use mileage.

You may aswell have a 50mpg petrol hybrid you can buy now or you need a 100mpg diesel for sale if peak oil is something that you raise as a concern.

The car you just described is a Series HYBRID. It wont be a diesel generator either no need when you can run a nice quiet petrol at 3600rpm and get BSFC in the region of 210 g/kWh with less weight, NVH and emission concerns.
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I know I described a series HYBRID, but there is no meaning full one out there (that can do 100miles on electric for instance) - a diesel would still offer better efficiency compared to a petrol engine, NHV is a minor issue with modern diesels.

Oh, and a 50mpg petrol Hybrid will be heavier than a 70mpg turbo diesel


!bluetonic! said:
Hydrogen food for thought article:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/features/how-the-fuels-of-the-future-will-find-their-rightful-places-2002248.html

"The real issues with hydrogen fuel celled cars are not whether they work – they do – but whether the fuel delivery infrastructure can ever be made viable. It presents an awesome obstacle. The wholesale conversion of the West's current system for delivering fuel would be absurdly costly, and require a vast public subsidy"
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Not really, you can ship hydrogen in tankers just as well as you ship petrol.

And any infrastructure expansion or changes have a cost, but it is not a prohibitive cost


PiKe said:
What about CO2 produced?
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What about CO2?

For every gallon of fuel that you burn (provided you have a clean burn) you will produce the same amount of CO2 irrespective of whether you are burning it in a bucket, or burning it in an engine
 
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119 g/km on the 1.4 TDi IIRC.

Big thing with the A2 was all ally. So in terms of MPG not much progress on that exampe however for sustaining an automotive business there is!
 
I think the only hybrid I'd consider owning now is the Evora 414e - Such a shame that it's not actually for sale.

1.2 litre 3 cylinder engine purely used to generate electricity to run the 2 electric motors. 300+ mile range on a tank of fuel. I think it's the most sensible route at the moment until the energy storage and charging technology catches up with what we want it to be able to do.
 
rypt said:
What about CO2?

For every gallon of fuel that you burn (provided you have a clean burn) you will produce the same amount of CO2 irrespective of whether you are burning it in a bucket, or burning it in an engine
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Is CO2 from diesel the same amount from the equivalent amount of petrol then?
 
rypt said:
I know I described a series HYBRID, but there is no meaning full one out there (that can do 100miles on electric for instance) - a diesel would still offer better efficiency compared to a petrol engine, NHV is a minor issue with modern diesels.
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It doesnt need to be a hybrid if you are saying 100miles, you wont need blended power if your using pure electric like a Nissan Leaf - give it all time to develope.

Oh, and a 50mpg petrol Hybrid will be heavier than a 70mpg turbo diesel
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Please return to the thread with the following.....

Prius Gen3 weight against a Mk6 Golf Bluemotion. I will even allow you the luxury of your comparison for you to use NEDC Diesel figures against real world Prius in this case. You are using so far pure conjecture.

To start the process:
Gen 2 Prius - 1350kg
2008 Golf TDI 140 - 1390kg
source: A2mac1, Autoreverse.

Not really, you can ship hydrogen in tankers just as well as you ship petrol.
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How do you insulate the cryogenically stored liquified hydrogen and also prevent hydrogen embrittlement of your storage system if you plan to use the same methods as petrol.

a) what about land infrastructure
b) where the hell are you shipping hydrogen from? Direct from the sun or many of the stars which is the only reason you hear it quoted as the most abundant element in the universe... here on earth away from the Top Gear studio its a pain in the arse to get hold of.

You still need learning and development in EV drivetrains, control systems and batteries anyway before H2FC cars reach production.



What about CO2?

For every gallon of fuel that you burn (provided you have a clean burn) you will produce the same amount of CO2 irrespective of whether you are burning it in a bucket, or burning it in an engine[/quote]
 
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The real issue with Hydrogen is producing it efficiently. The only viable way of doing so is in the latest gen of nuclear power plants, something we are all deadset against or something. Below that is electrolysis, which as the name implies, uses electricity, and a godamn lot of it too.
 
Hxc said:
The real issue with Hydrogen is producing it efficiently. The only viable way of doing so is in the latest gen of nuclear power plants, something we are all deadset against or something. Below that is electrolysis, which as the name implies, uses electricity, and a godamn lot of it too.
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I keep reading this regurgitation.

Latest designs, not operational plants.

And there is never any mention of yield per, I dont know, GWh that would give an indication of it being enough.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
It doesnt need to be a hybrid if you are saying 100miles, you wont need blended power if your using pure electric like a Nissan Leaf - give it all time to develope.
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Except that charge time is still not there, if you have 100miles EV, plus 100miles via generator ... and you can refill the generator, suddenly you have a car that has cracked the temporary issue with battery capacity.

How do you insulate the cryogenically stored liquified hydrogen and also prevent hydrogen embrittlement of your storage system if you plan to use the same methods as petrol.
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Same way as BOC ship hydrogen now?

b) where the hell are you shipping hydrogen from? Direct from the sun or many of the stars which is the only reason you hear it quoted as the most abundant element in the universe... here on earth away from the Top Gear studio its a pain in the arse to get hold of.
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From the nuclear reactors that produce hydrogen as a by-product (NGNP for instance), you know the reactors we SHOULD be building/finishing research on right now


Jonnycoupe said:
I keep reading this regurgitation.

Latest designs, not operational plants.

And there is never any mention of yield per, I dont know, GWh that would give an indication of it being enough.
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Even if it does not produce enough, it's not a issue ... you just build more nuclear reactors and then use electrolysis due to the relatively cheap energy, or you use battery vehicles, or you grow some algae biofuel.
The point is ... there are PLENTY of alternatives, but nothing is getting the sort of funding and research that it needs, or the sort of engineering time that it requires due to short sighted morons being in charge
 
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rypt said:
Except that charge time is still not there, if you have 100miles EV, plus 100miles via generator ... and you can refill the generator, suddenly you have a car that has cracked the temporary issue with battery capacity.


Same way as BOC ship hydrogen now?


From the nuclear reactors that produce hydrogen as a by-product, you know the reactors we SHOULD be building right now
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1)So the trip is now 200miles?

2) Thats not the same as petrol then is it? Which leads to the next point of it your using power stations to generate the hydrogen then why are you talking about shipping it in boats? The stations would be on the same landmass?

3 ) Which reactor designs are these then? The EPR and Westinghouse AP1000 do not produce hydrogen (other than in the primary coolant circuits that is soon quenched with chemistry addition) for tapping off.

I like to think you can contribute Rypt but the bulk of your comments are so top level its verging on political agenda rather than science. We still have to crack the statement you made earlier with kerb weight data from Parkers so lets not get onto Nuclear reactors in this thread.
 
By tanker I was talking about a truck, not a boat ... but anyway

The NGNP is going to be ready for deployment within a decade, less if you pump more money into it ... and even less if you build the test versions so that when it comes time to build the final one you have most of the job already done.

As for weights, not a fair comparison due to Toyota and VW probably using different materials and techniques in construction (probably due to the market segment / price of the car)
If you want to talk about adding weight going from petrol to diesel, look at the Auris ... discounting the 2.0 diesel, going form petrol to turbo diesel only adds 60kg
 
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rypt said:
As for weights, not a fair comparison due to Toyota and VW probably using different materials and techniques in construction (probably due to the market segment / price of the car)
If you want to talk about adding weight going from petrol to diesel, look at the Auris ... discounting the 2.0 diesel, going form petrol to turbo diesel only adds 60kg
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Golf and Prius and your questioning market sector :eek:

Well fortunatley with the Auris you could use the Hybrid Auris? 60kg is a lot in my book.

2009 TSi DSG Golf is 1404kg! - Thats petrol.
 
PiKe said:
I think it would be a good second car to have, but they're still so expensive.
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A Prius as a second car? ...erm...what? I can only assume you mean you'd have the Prius as a daily and the S2000 as the second car? Otherwise you're a mental haha


Jonnycoupe said:
2 Insights = 1 Prius in terms of seating.
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What effect does having an additional 2 passengers in a Prius have on the economy?
Not trying to argue, but the immediate though came to my head was that driving 2 insights may be more economical in terms of fuel costs if they get 80mpg each when the Prius may get only 40mpg fully laden (guesswork figures - probably miles off but like I say, just wondered!)



As far as my opinion goes, I despise them. I can't see why you would buy one for personal use tbh. Many diesels can get similar mpg, or if you wanted to avoid the congestion charge then get a lexus 4x4 or the big saloon one (G450h? I can't remember the model name but they're huge and full of gadgets) and do it in comfort.
For a company though, I can see the benefits in tax savings. Plus customers/clients might see you in a better light for "going green" (though that's a whole other kettle of fish)
 
Naf said:
What effect does having an additional 2 passengers in a Prius have on the economy?
Not trying to argue, but the immediate though came to my head was that driving 2 insights may be more economical in terms of fuel costs if they get 80mpg each when the Prius may get only 40mpg fully laden (guesswork figures - probably miles off but like I say, just wondered!)
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That what pretty much my point, a situation of carrying 4 people.

I get it most weekends with the kids - I have a focus for that and then I run about in a Mk1 Honda Insight. - 71 mpg average over last 30k
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Golf and Prius and your questioning market sector :eek:

Well fortunatley with the Auris you could use the Hybrid Auris? 60kg is a lot in my book.

2009 TSi DSG Golf is 1404kg! - Thats petrol.
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I don't know of any weight figures for the Auris hydbrid, and you just proved my point. The Golf is heavier than other cars in that segment (and has the heavier DSG)
 
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