Ruining World of Warcraft for lowbies

but companies have offered games with 'challenge' where you can be whacked and robbed of all your kit if you dont twitch fast enough and its no fun for noobs in their starter kit.

See now thats the irony of MMOs, a noob character should indeed be easy to whack and rob, because they are precisely that, a new character. Many players 14 years ago when UO came out understood that. They understood that you needed to develop your skills, just as a real fighter etc needs to develop skills. They also understood that this new online roleplay game was a world in which not every person was a hero and that life in this wonderfully crafted world of fantasy was a sometimes harsh and tough existence.

Somewhere along the line it got lost and now everyone expects to be the hero, everyone expects to be rock hard at any level and everyone expects that no matter how "bad" things become for their character everything will be alright providing they just pop to an NPC.

I find it staggering in many modern MMOs that there are any creatures in the wilds at all given that the worlds tend to be inhabited by thousands of heavily armoured , powerfully magicked people running about all over the world who are all apparently immortal and can never actually die. Does kind of make you wonder just who is actually buried in all those ingame graveyards and how you actually kill anyone given that all it takes is a low level priest to ressurect them :D (but thats something you have to overlook as pedantism)

I remember UO so well, I also have never played an MMO since UO which had quite the impact on me that it had. It really felt like a breathing world, a real place of fantasy where I met some people who excelled in the arts of combat, other people who simply tended bar in player run taverns, other people who didnt fight at all and were humble shopkeepers running their stores and keeping their shelves stocked for their clientele. Pacifist players who never drew blade or cast spell in anger, even a deaf and dumb player who in 4 years of playing never "spoke" once and did all their communications via text emotes. (*Shenmar makes the motion of a sea wave with his hand* etc.)

I remember the harshness of my first journey out of a town, the fear, the trepidation, the actual worry for my character and his no doubt imminent death. The adrenalin rush of being chased through the woods and caves by PKers, would I get away, could I throw them off, often I couldnt but sometimes the rush of victory that I had eluded these would be villains. The way that death had an impact and wasnt just a case of "oh I need to get back somewhere quickly, I know, I will just die here and use it as a form of rapid travel".

UO was the closest to an online version of the PnP AD&D that I experienced, there was almost an emphasis on the social aspect of the game (much as with the social aspect of PnP AD&D). When Origins made UO they had a company motto which was "Origin : We create worlds" , that was smack bang on the truth for me, they created a real MMO world with all the villainous and all the wonderous aspects therein, where so many others merely created MMO games.

However, just bringing back UO today wouldnt help much, as there has been a massive polar shift in the types of people who play online games these days. Its an entirely different sort of person compared to 14 years ago, some would say generally a better type, others (like myself) would say generally a worse type. The userbase for a new UO would definitely be small, perhaps enough to turn a profit, but nevertheless small. I suppose, somewhat ironically, the closest userbase to UOs I have seen these days is on Laurelin server in LOTRO. Though even then its somewhat of a shadow of the days of the UOTC and CRC era on Catskills - UO.

I'll never see its like again online, thats for sure, but I'm very happy that I got to experience it.
 
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When i first played WoW i teamed up with a guy who had come from UO. We were in darkshore and he was telling me about getting killed and losing all your gear etc. Later on i was thinking thank god i play wow because i died about 1000 times the first time i played to 60. Its a hard rule set but now i know how mmo's work i think it would be great fun
 
Waited for that part, never happened, well done you can win some 1v1 and 2v1 as a kitted out 60 vs 60s that have a few quest items and even still barely. You're terrible.

You're a wee bit bitter and jaded. There was no need to insult anyone like that. As a retribution paladin he still exercised all the fundamental pvp skills that separates good players from the average ones. He just happens to have incredibly overpowered items.
 
When i first played WoW i teamed up with a guy who had come from UO. We were in darkshore and he was telling me about getting killed and losing all your gear etc. Later on i was thinking thank god i play wow because i died about 1000 times the first time i played to 60. Its a hard rule set but now i know how mmo's work i think it would be great fun

Yeah, often it was just about being careful, planning and thinking about what you are doing. You know, obvious stuff like, hunt creatures off the beaten track, not in common locations where you will be easily found by pkers, dont pull a creature and fight it on the road where everyone riding down the road will see you, pull it and drag it away from clear sight and fight it in the woods etc.

Be aware of what and who are around you before engaging a mob, never underestimate a player simply because he appears to be dressed in low gear or just robes. Simple stuff, being aware of your surroundings and just thinking about what you are going to do before doing it would often save your life on UO. It added that extra dimension compared to other MMOs where you dont really need to think, just walk from mob to mob killing, not caring who or what is around you or your situational position etc. Its ironic that we today talk about "mindless" grinding in MMOs...in UO you simply couldnt be mindless because it would inevitably lead to your death, you had to be on your toes and aware at all times.
 
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However, just bringing back UO today wouldnt help much, as there has been a massive polar shift in the types of people who play online games these days. Its an entirely different sort of person compared to 14 years ago, some would say generally a better type, others (like myself) would say generally a worse type. The userbase for a new UO would definitely be small, perhaps enough to turn a profit, but nevertheless small.

I dunno, I think something UO like could work ... but with tweaks.

UO already introduced item insurance for when you died ... if you add a .home command that takes you home/to a res place upon death it can then work (but your body with any uninsured loot stays put). Insurance costs need to be based on the type of item though

What needs to go is this silly level stuff, instead you bring back UO style skills (with a skill cap for total), and stats. You can create lots of different skills, where some actions need combinations of different skills and so on (giving you lots and lots of different character setups and abilities).
You have say 5 or 6 basic stats (any more and it gets confusing)
The only time you can use some sort of level thing, is to see whether the person is skilled enough to use a weapon/wear an armour, such must have killed 1000 people to wear/use.

A class system would also work fine, where a class gave you stat bonuses, skill bonuses, access to certain other skills, allows you to use weapon special effects, makes you more vulnerable to certain weapon effects.

Weapons/Armour/Gems (or jewels or whatever) are pretty simple really, you have quest reward ones and ones crafted by players. There are different types, each with a weakness or a strength, the quality of the item depends on the crafter, and so on.
You need a HUGE selection of items though, with ability to change colour, mix and match jewels/gems (upto a point), create alloys which give different effects depending on combination, etc.

PvP/PvE(/PvM) is something that is hard to do. I actually like the whole Felucca/Trammel idea, just would want a different implementation. I agree with the idea of having a split for PvP or non-PvP. Any quests that have really good rewards should all take part in the PvP zone, so that there is some fear of being attacked. Now, there is nothing wrong with not forcing the whole quest to take part in that zone, instead part of the quest could (perhaps) be completed while in the non-PvP zone ... but it should be harder than were you to do it in the PvP zone.
There is plenty more to be said about this, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

I would love to play WoW, but I need something that has far more PvP, and PvP that is influenced by my skill, rather than by my level and my armour gems.


Yeah, often it was just about being careful, planning and thinking about what you are doing. You know, obvious stuff like, hunt creatures off the beaten track, not in common locations where you will be easily found by pkers, dont pull a creature and fight it on the road where everyone riding down the road will see you, pull it and drag it away from clear sight and fight it in the woods etc.

Be aware of what and who are around you before engaging a mob, never underestimate a player simply because he appears to be dressed in low gear or just robes. Simple stuff, being aware of your surroundings and just thinking about what you are going to do before doing it would often save your life on UO. It added that extra dimension compared to other MMOs where you dont really need to think, just walk from mob to mob killing, not caring who or what is around you or your situational position etc. Its ironic that we today talk about "mindless" grinding in MMOs...in UO you simply couldnt be mindless because it would inevitably lead to your death, you had to be on your toes and aware at all times.


Couldn't have put it better my self. I just loved turning up places naked, and people not knowing would just ignore you. Until you mage them to death :)
 
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UO already introduced item insurance for when you died ... if you add a .home command that takes you home/to a res place upon death it can then work (but your body with any uninsured loot stays put). Insurance costs need to be based on the type of item though

I actually much preferred UO before the whole item insurance aspect was added, I felt that was against the spirit of the original concept.

What needs to go is this silly level stuff, instead you bring back UO style skills

Definitely agree.

A class system would also work fine, where a class gave you stat bonuses, skill bonuses, access to certain other skills, allows you to use weapon special effects, makes you more vulnerable to certain weapon effects

Would prefer it to be classless like UO was.


PvP/PvE(/PvM) is something that is hard to do. I actually like the whole Felucca/Trammel idea, just would want a different implementation. I agree with the idea of having a split for PvP or non-PvP. Any quests that have really good rewards should all take part in the PvP zone, so that there is some fear of being attacked. Now, there is nothing wrong with not forcing the whole quest to take part in that zone, instead part of the quest could (perhaps) be completed while in the non-PvP zone ... but it should be harder than were you to do it in the PvP zone.
There is plenty more to be said about this, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

Would very much depend on how it was done, for me it was the very moment that Trammel was introduced that UO was destroyed. UO imo was a far FAR better MMO when it was just Felucca. A sentiment it seems from things I have read around the web that most of the UO vets agree with. As with the item insurance, the introduction of Trammel simply went completely against the original concepts behind UO and ruined what the game was all about. EA sticking their nose in after buying Origin and then proceeding to **** up the game imo. (along with cancelling UO2, boo hiss EA)
 
Oh I agree they made the game worse, but I agree with the idea just not the implementation. Having item insurance (but perhaps not for reds) allows players who only want to do a bit of PvP to do so without losing all their stuff, and if the cost is high enough to insure it makes death something you want to avoid.
The split for PvP/non-PvP is part of that ... it allows players with all sorts of interests to play the game, and play it on the same server. If the server is large enough (client wise) then the dilution effect of the two zones is not that bad. For instance, I loved to PvP, but I also liked just going and hanging out with people.
 
Twinking in wow is rediculously simple.
In anarchy online it was very hard, back in 2002 I spent weeks/months gathering the items just to simply get enough skill points, I had to get out spreadsheets/notes and a calculator to make sure everything adds all up. In advance of making the character. Until they ruined it and made it so that you need at least 75% of an items skill for it to still work properly. I had this low level char with end game weapons, it was so rewarding in PvP.

Anyone can do it, if they have the time and dedication.
 
PvP in warcraft is so unsatisfying as it is, it's so crappy these battlezones. I tried to play them but just running about like headless chickens with zero co-ordination. And half the time trying to go in with a group it was gimped any way. Real-time combat plox, mortal online is the only one within my peek of interest concerning MMOs and even then it's pretty under-developed as of yet.
 
Oh I agree they made the game worse, but I agree with the idea just not the implementation. Having item insurance (but perhaps not for reds) allows players who only want to do a bit of PvP to do so without losing all their stuff, and if the cost is high enough to insure it makes death something you want to avoid.
The split for PvP/non-PvP is part of that ... it allows players with all sorts of interests to play the game, and play it on the same server. If the server is large enough (client wise) then the dilution effect of the two zones is not that bad. For instance, I loved to PvP, but I also liked just going and hanging out with people.

Yeah its all a matter of personal tastes. For me, the introduction of Trammel just killed the game. The whole idea of UO was that it was as real a fantasy world as you could get with as many of the freedoms of a real life as possible (like being able to kill a player, skin him, cook his flesh and eat it :D ), that danger lurked outside the confines of the town walls , be it creature or player danger, the only place to be safe to a degree was under the protection of the guards, the rest of the world was the wilds. By introducing Trammel they destroyed the very concept behind the game by making it so that you could be 100% safe while being "anywhere" in the game, the whole vision that Garriott had created for decades in the Ultima series of a world of danger and wildness, was in one foul hit ended. Without the danger, without the risk, everything became complacent and with complancency boredom often follows.
 
wat, levels don't actually mean anything in most cases since everyone is 80 and 80 is max:confused:

In UO I could start a new char, train up a bit of mage and then go and PvP and kill people if I was better than them

In WoW you start a new char, then have to grind for a few years to get the levels and items to then kill some NPCs
 
I never understood twinking, as far as i could tell it was mainly for people who could not compete end game and essential just enjoy fighting severely undergeared opponents.

I will not pretend I was some PVP god on WoW I was frankly **** compared to hardened PVP/Arena players. I was allways more into raiding.
 
You're terrible.

Haha.

Fair enough, trashing loads of random players is no indicator of skill, but I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion. This wasn't meant as proof of skill anyway, it's just funny.

I never understood twinking, as far as i could tell it was mainly for people who could not compete end game and essential just enjoy fighting severely undergeared opponents.

Again it's more that I'm just bored of endgame and this is hilarious for a while. :p
 
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I never understood twinking, as far as i could tell it was mainly for people who could not compete end game and essential just enjoy fighting severely undergeared opponents.

I will not pretend I was some PVP god on WoW I was frankly **** compared to hardened PVP/Arena players. I was allways more into raiding.

It's for the lulz primarily or Revenge against a Realm... It happens. :p Frankly I don't miss the entire politics involved with World of warcraft, many take it FAR FAR too serious.
 
In UO I could start a new char, train up a bit of mage and then go and PvP and kill people if I was better than them

In WoW you start a new char, then have to grind for a few years to get the levels and items to then kill some NPCs

A few years? You are obviously not playing wow
 
You're a few months behind the times, been going on a while now. :)

On the blackout battlegroup theres a trio of these alliance pallies all pimped out in bc-trial gear, and horde still wins plenty games. Usually we just keep them busy at a bunker flag somewhere while we push forward, can't decide whether they're actually a bit dim or just really bored of winning games by themselves.
 
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