G20 police officer cleared of assault

wait so...1 out of 3 specalists said it was natural causes... the other 2 gave it to internal bleeding?

well.. i dunno but in boxing etc when u have professional adjudicators, and its a split decision dont you go with the majority instead of accepting say that no-one won?
Because the criminal standard is beyond reasonable doubt.

I was under the impression that had been changed years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4406129.stm
You can be tried again following an acquittal if there is new and compelling evidence. You cannot be tried twice on the same facts after a conviction under any circumstances.

How would you feel if they do away with all the CPS\whatever people and go the Judge and Jury way?
You'd better expand the Court of Appeal and CCRC first because the number of wrongful convictions would go through the roof. The police charge all sorts of rubbish that actual lawyers should stop before taking the risk of putting the defendant in front of a judge or jury (my personal favourite was the public order charge for calling a police horse "gay").
 
I hear what you're saying, but in the light of Dr.Patel's apparent failings of post mortems 2002 to 2005, plus two further post mortems in agreement with each other, seems to me Dr.Patels post mortem could or should have been dismissed. If two later pathologists have come to the same verdict versus one completely different verdict, it certainly looks like Dr.Patel doesn't have a clue. But oh well, that's law I guess.

It cannot be dismissed. It is evidence, it stands.

Now I'm not saying it is correct but it is Dr. Patels interpretation. I cannot vouch for Dr. Patels experience or past history, but you cannot pick and chose what evidence to disclose - the Disclosure Act makes it quite clear. If there is evidence no matter how much it supports or undermines the prosecution case, then it has to be disclosed.

Failing to disclose evidence by the Police has blown cases completely apart in the past - and rightly so. It has resulted in Police Officers being referred to the IPCC and charges having been brought by the CPS. It would be ludicrous to suggest that the IPCC and CPS ignore or supress evidence.

By the way, the IPCC (remember it is they who did the investigation not the Police) will have submitted the file of evidence to the CPS (the delay is down to the IPCC not the Police - remember that when people are harping on about the 6 month delay etc., and not being able to charge Common Assault) and as a result of the evidence provided the CPS have decided on the balance of probability, that they cannot charge.
 
The police charge all sorts of rubbish that actual lawyers should stop before taking the risk of putting the defendant in front of a judge or jury (my personal favourite was the public order charge for calling a police horse "gay").

Most charges are now authorised by the CPS - either face to face with a CPS Solicitor or via CPS Direct via the phone.

The case would then be reviewed before it even got to Court, so to say that the Police charge all sorts of rubbish that lawyers should stop before taking the risk of putting the defendant before a court is factually incorrect to say the least.

The CPS not the Police have prosecuted cases for over 20 odd years.
 
No I think people who think they're being clever by walking slowly in front of riot police are being a smart ass or a general nuisance and deserve to have reasonable force used against them with the aim of moving them along.

I also don't think for 1 second did the Officer ever envisage him falling over from a push.
Did he mean to push him on or did he mean to push him over?
I think the answer is obvious.
 
Would a member of the public who did the same thing,pushed someone over who then died,get away with it?
No?
Didn't think so...
 
It cannot be dismissed. It is evidence, it stands.

Now I'm not saying it is correct but it is Dr. Patels interpretation. I cannot vouch for Dr. Patels experience or past history, but you cannot pick and chose what evidence to disclose - the Disclosure Act makes it quite clear. If there is evidence no matter how much it supports or undermines the prosecution case, then it has to be disclosed.

Failing to disclose evidence by the Police has blown cases completely apart in the past - and rightly so. It has resulted in Police Officers being referred to the IPCC and charges having been brought by the CPS. It would be ludicrous to suggest that the IPCC and CPS ignore or supress evidence.
There's also the problem that the CPS could not skip over Patel's post mortem when outlining their case. They would have to explain what happened, why additional post mortems were ordered and then call Patel as a witness to confirm what they had said, at which point he would completely disagree with the prosecution case.

Most charges are now authorised by the CPS - either face to face with a CPS Solicitor or via CPS Direct via the phone.
Yes, but many minor offences can be charged by police officers and they will soon have the power to charge almost all summary-only offences.

The case would then be reviewed before it even got to Court, so to say that the Police charge all sorts of rubbish that lawyers should stop before taking the risk of putting the defendant before a court is factually incorrect to say the least.
Which is why the CPS has to exist. There must be an independent body between the police and the courts. The old police solicitors were far too easily convinced by "Awww, c'mon mate I've put loads of work in. Let's have a run at it!"
 
You can be tried again following an acquittal if there is new and compelling evidence. You cannot be tried twice on the same facts after a conviction under any circumstances.

But wasn't that the point, awaiting further evidence therefore different facts. Was there any chance of being tried without new and compelling evidence within the legal time frame?

Charge based on the evidence at hand, if anything further comes up review it - what have the CPS been waiting for that would change any potential charges?

I'm afraid I still cannot find justification for the actions of this police officer.
 
But wasn't that the point, awaiting further evidence therefore different facts. Was there any chance of being tried without new and compelling evidence within the legal time frame?
The key issue is the act that has been committed. If the officer had been convicted for common assault a year ago for pushing Tomlinson to the ground then he could not have been tried for manslaughter now for pushing Tomlinson. You can't be prosecuted and convicted for the same act twice.

Charge based on the evidence at hand, if anything further comes up review it - what have the CPS been waiting for that would change any potential charges?
Medical evidence on the cause of death.
 
Havent really followed this thread but personally I think whilst it was unfortunate that the bloke died and I would be rightly peeved if it was a friend or relative of mine ultimately they would be asking for troube by prosecuting the bloke.

The next mass riot (which they should not allow to even form in the first place) it would be like a Spain match with people chucking themself to the deck, arms flailing and screaming compo after the event. The police have to be able to react with a degree of force in these instances otherwise things would get massively out of control. I feel sorry for the bloke but if he hadnt been there in the first place he would not have got hurt.

Police need to be able to react, if they were under the threat of litigation every time anything happened we would be either left with a police who would not do their job through fear of being prosecuted if they did anything wrong. Or a police force who would refuse to get into potentially troublesome situations, again leaving us in a state without a fully functioning police force.

edit: I know how pedanticc you folks can be so yes I know it wasnt a riot, it was a protest, but they always turn into a riot at some point.
 
Regarding the menezes case - I guess not many of you folk posting here remember the blatant deception in the statements released by the police to back up their claim that they acted with the highest levels of professionalism and dedication and that they 'got their man' - whether this is a deliberate act of concealment or simple stupidity on the part of senior officers who open their big mouths when not in possession of all the facts, is hard to say... the cynic in me says it was damage limitation.

Some of the statements were worthy of 'ingsoc' and the very worst propaganda fictionalised in 1984.


I also suppose not many of you remember the slavering, vicious thread that popped up on here at the time of menezes' shooting, iirc the title was something like 'We got one!!111!' (of the ********) terrorists etc full of people jumping on the 'facts' (lol, facts indeed...) and loudly and proudly declaring that menezez 'got what he deserved' as a terrorist threat, evil doer, immigrant he deserved to die, was his own fault for doing all the things the police accused him of... only for the true facts to reveal that he did none of the things that the police accuse him of doing to make himself a target. Quite the opposite in fact.

Same goes for tomlinson... the press machine geared up to cast doubt on him as a drunk and a troublemaker who got what he deserved.

...and some of you 'people' (& I use this term loosely) lapped it up like it was ambrosia of the gods :rolleyes:

Accidents happen. And the police are fallible people too. But when there's an error that results in the death of an innocent member of the public then the justice system owes it to the people it is designed to protect to fully and exhaustively pursue the truth... not to allow pathetic obstacles like an expiry of a time limit in which to bring a common assault charge. To do otherwise lowers public confidence in the justice system, every single time and without fail.

To my mind the police are not there to help me... I'm sure that indirectly they contribute to a lower rate of crime in the area that I live, but my personal experience of them has been much below the standard I was brought up to expect from them and to return in my favour. For the most part they have shown themselves to be gung-ho bully boys who have an overweening arrogance when faced with a respectful individual like myself.
As such (and purely from personal experience - not just what I read in the papers about the cases discussed in this thread) I would not trust any of them as far as I can spit. Indeed, I'd have to think very carefully about helping them in any instance - It's a sad thing to say. :(

I just don't trust the police and the courts to act in the interests of integrity and truth; perhaps that's my failing in how I read these cases, but I must add if it was any one of us accused of manslaughter through negligence or overreaction (as in the two cases of menezez and tomlinson), with all the video and witness statements, then we'd not be anticipating a smooth ride at the hands of the cps... an example would have to be made in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of the system - likewise the opposite where the police are concerned as they have to preserve the illusion of respectability and integrity in order that the majority of people retain some respect (I mean fear) of the state and it's agents.

But I begin to digress with opinion and not facts, so I'll conclude with the following:

We don't live in china or north korea or other paragons of fairness and democracy... but that fact should not divert our attention from the need for constant scrutiny and betterment of our law enforcement agencies. Complacency in such a system is dangerous.
 
Regarding the menezes case - I guess not many of you folk posting here remember the blatant deception in the statements released by the police to back up their claim that they acted with the highest levels of professionalism and dedication and that they 'got their man' - whether this is a deliberate act of concealment or simple stupidity on the part of senior officers who open their big mouths when not in possession of all the facts, is hard to say... the cynic in me says it was damage limitation.

Menezes was a rapist, dontcha know.
 
Bout the women issue being hit. Well to me if i was the cop id have arrested her (quick cuffs on and avoid any physical violence) IF she was being that bad but i don't see it to be the case.

Beats the hell out of er beating her with a metal prod and a b slap. I mean u got a women shouting blah blah blah you can either try to ignore, i mean parents ignore screaming babies and kids don't they without smacking em with a metal prod. Or maybe arrest and bypass the hit to her leg and b slap or swap places with another cop to distance yourself if you felt you were being singled out in a argument.

Maybe the situation would have resolved i.e she would have calmed down to you and wouldn't be as hostile to another coppa tho that's very subjective i guess depending on the women.

But in no circumstances does a slap and a whack with a prod the women need to be done to avoid a shouting women.

Btw too tired to double check this post. I think this post reflects my point and that will be it from me in this thread.
 
Menezes was a rapist, dontcha know.


I didn't hear that at the time, but I just searched for an article on that... :eek::eek:

Shocking coincidence, innocently reported or otherwise, and a number of seeming inconsistencies with the actual reporting/investigation of the allegation.
Again... :eek:
 
This been posted yet?

G20 riots: policeman who struck Ian Tomlinson faced two previous aggression inquiries


Pc Harwood left the Metropolitan Police a decade ago amid controversy over an alleged off-duty road rage incident, then got a job with Surrey Police, where he was accused of using excessive force.

He could now face disciplinary charges over the death of Mr Tomlinson, and could also be the subject of an internal investigation by the Met into how he was allowed to rejoin the force despite having an unresolved disciplinary matter on his record.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-faced-two-previous-aggression-inquiries.html
 
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Justice, not too much to ask is it? What with us living in a first world democracy an all that.

What do you mean by justice? Do you mean the police officer being convicted for manslaughter? Because that isn't justice, that is predetermined guilt. The conflicting evidence would suggest that the chances of a conviction for manslaughter are slim so it is pointless proceeding with a prosecution. The CPS do the same day in, day out with many other cases that are just not as high profile. So what you seem to want is for this case to be treated differently because of it's profile and because the accussed is a police officer. That would be unfair.
 
Too many police brutality apologists and 'immigrants must die' people in this thread that it truly tarnishes the image and reputation of OcUK. Today I am truly disgusted and disappointed.

Well done for eroding my faith in humanity :( Certain truly reputable long-time board members, as well as BNP pond scum both alike has joined the fray of the disgusting simpleton mentality that has led to the apologetic and tolerant nature of needless deaths and altercations that have lowered the stature of the authorities that are supposed to protect us, and the profile of man as a whole.

This thread... is deeply disturbing and a horrific simulacrum into how man can easily sanction the brutal treatment of others without even the slightest dent into their morality and conscience. Congratulations...
I'm a long-time member and a BNP supporter but I am not taking that stance, so your generalisation is not accurate ;)
 
well question time last night raised this issue briefly at the end - the majority of the people thought it was a terrible situation, probably an abuse of process and definately a cover up...
 
No I think people who think they're being clever by walking slowly in front of riot police are being a smart ass or a general nuisance and deserve to have reasonable force used against them with the aim of moving them along.

How did he 'think he was clever'? - because I certainly didn't see the big neon lit sign he was carrying whilst doing it saying 'lol'

I just saw a man who had drunk too much and presumably couldn't walk that fast or that straight snaking around the crowd of rioters which led hi to walk in front of the police. Another three or four yards and he would have been past the police line aswell, which would have taken no more than 2-3 seconds, however a shove in the back was duly called for :rolleyes: or not.
 
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I also don't think for 1 second did the Officer ever envisage him falling over from a push.
Did he mean to push him on or did he mean to push him over?
I think the answer is obvious.


have you seen the Video, with that much force there was no way he wouldnt have fallien over!
 
have you seen the Video, with that much force there was no way he wouldnt have fallien over!

So what if he died cause he fell over. People trip over things all the time without managing to die. He had so many other health issues that for a little push to kill him, clearly removes blame from the pusher imo. Fine if he'd pushed him into a metal spike or in front of an oncoming bus, but if police can't push troublemakers around, then we might as well not have police.
 
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