AMD® Phenom™ II X6 and Intel® Core™ i7 Debate

[starry_night]

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secondly I wonder where this £100 figure keeps coming from? . . . Obviously I'm looking at approx £150 difference per system, over four systems that £600 big ones

Snip

I should have put in 'e.g' or 'say', or the like, as I £100 was just a round number.

. . . . then as mentioned in the O.P I need to work out running costs . . . big picture!

So we have seen some definitive statements on this thread about which option is best. I might have missed something, but I could not see that any of them factored in running costs for the performance being proposed as the winning factor i.e. the cost differential. I would therefore say this thread is a long way from dead.

 

[NathanE]

Hello NathanE


That interesting? . . . what is your experience with AMD® systems then? . . . are you suggesting the AMD® mobos are less stable or have inferior drivers per chance?


Obviousy I can't justify spending an extra £150 per system based on that! . . . I have not ever had a problem with either AMD® or Intel ® mobos . . . please expand on your negative experiences?


I can afford it . . . can't work out if the premium is worth it yet!

It's not just AMD systems. I was more referring to the collective group of "non-Intel" systems. This includes such things as ATI motherboard chipsets, VIA chipsets, Nvidia chipsets. Believe it or not these manufacturers also make/made chipsets for Intel platforms. And I still wouldn't touch them.

Given that it is impossible to build an AMD CPU based system with an Intel motherboard chipset, it pretty much rules out that brand entirely for me.

The motherboard chipset is the most fundamental and crucial part of any build. If it has bugs in it, stability issues, crap drivers or just badly supported drivers then, from my past experiences, you ARE in for a world of hurt.

My experience is based upon 15 years of computing. I have learnt some hard lessons in that time. I now only ever buy pure Intel systems. Even for friends and family I will only recommend pure Intel systems because I don't want to be stuck with the burden of supporting a non-Intel one.

I realise this is hard for some people to stomach. But hey I have spent upwards of probably £200-300 "extra" in the past. JUST so that I can have a pure Intel system of equivilent performance that isn't going to cause me a load of hassle in neither the short nor long term. But I don't view it as spending "extra" because the only alternative (a non Intel system) isn't actually an alternative to me. I just don't even consider them anymore. Totally written off that option in my mind.

Here's a short summary of the type of problems I have encountered on pretty much every system I have even laid hands on that isn't an Intel chipset:

* instability (from hard freezes to BSODs)
* fussyness over RAM
* crackling sound output
* PCI cards that are incompatible
* USB randomly stops working
* drivers unavailable when a new Windows OS comes out, resulting in crap performance and feeling "locked in" to the previous OS: therefore requiring an upgrading, costs more money in long term - which must be factored in to TCO.
* buggy chipset drivers
* incomplete chipset drivers that don't support the full featureset I've come to expect from Intel ones (generally thinking of I/O perf. optimisations here)
* el cheapo built-in RAID controllers that I wouldn't trust with a single test file let alone my real data - as opposed to industry leading Intel ICH's RAID controllers with the firmware and software to back them up.
* rushed adoption of new technologies like USB3.0 or ACPI (when that happened) resulting in huge BIOS, firmware and driver bugs. I remember the first wave of non-Intel chipsets implementation of ACPI. They were so retarded that you can't actually install Server 2008 on them. Again, there is a TCO issue here.
* restricted upgradability - I owned an ATI chipset Pentium 4 machine a few years back that had a bizarre 2GB RAM limit whereas equiv. Intel chipsets at the time supported at least 4GB sometimes 8GB.
* battery life issues

 

[Big.Wayne]

Hello again NathanE,

thanks for taking the time out to write a reply!

It's not just AMD systems. I was more referring to the collective group of "non-Intel" systems. This includes such things as ATI motherboard chipsets, VIA chipsets, Nvidia chipsets. Believe it or not these manufacturers also make/made chipsets for Intel platforms. And I still wouldn't touch them.

Ok I think I understand . . . your talking about nVidia chipsets for Intel systems, your talking about AMD chipsets for Intel systems and your talking about VIA chipsets for Intel systems . . . I'm not sure if your talking about nVidia chipsets for AMD systems or in fact AMD chipsets for AMD systems though?

nVidia possibly made two of the best chipsets "ever" for AMD systems . . those being nForce2 & nForce4 . . both absolutely "legendary" chipsets that I think anyone would be hard pressed to say anything negative about . . . A real kicker for AMD having a rival company make a better chipset for one of their products than even they could . . . lot of respect for the nVidia engineers who worked on those two! . . . .

I used a couple of VIA chipsets with both Intel & AMD in the past, can't say they were anything special but neither did they cause any headaches really? . . . I certainly agree with your opinion though that if building an Intel system the company that makes the best supporting chipset IMHO is . . . Intel!

I take it then that you have no experience or knowledge of the recent AMD chipsets that support AMD processors? . . . My first "hands-on" experience of an AMD chipset was just last year (Nov 2009) and hand-on-heart I can say they are superb . . . you really should try a "Modern" AMD chipset + AMD processor yourself to see what I am talking about, no worries there mate . . . no worries at all!

Given that it is impossible to build an AMD CPU based system with an Intel motherboard chipset, it pretty much rules out that brand entirely for me.

Well if your only going to use Intel processors then yeah your stuck with Intel chipsets . . . but should you decide to venture out your "comfort zone" and sample the latest and greatest from AMD I have not a single doubt in my mind you would be pleasantly surprised! . . . I certainly was!

I don't blame you for being apprehensive though, nobody wants to build a system that is gonna cause headaches, glitch constantly and generally cause grief but that couldn't be further from the "truth" when talking about modern day AMD chipsets that support AMD processors . . . trust me . . the "wicked witch" is dead and AMD are really on top of their game!

The motherboard chipset is the most fundamental and crucial part of any build. If it has bugs in it, stability issues, crap drivers or just badly supported drivers then, from my past experiences, you ARE in for a world of hurt.

Hmmm . . . . yes the trauma of past experiences can be a powerful deterrent but if you haven't used a modern day AMD chipset for AMD processors I don't understand how you can even have an opinion? . . . I say this respectfully but condemnation without thorough investigation is the highest form of ignorance?

Anyone who speaks badly of a product they have never used is not serving the community as well as they could? . . . if you have indeed used a "modern" AMD chipset with an AMD processor and got yourself into a "world of hurt" then I would like to hear about it? . . . I'm nine months into running a "pure" AMD system and I've got nothing but praise for the engineers, rammed to the gills with technology and selling for a very affordable price, there is nothing to base a scaremongering campaign on here . . . it's all good!

My experience is based upon 15 years of computing. I have learnt some hard lessons in that time. I now only ever buy pure Intel systems. Even for friends and family I will only recommend pure Intel systems because I don't want to be stuck with the burden of supporting a non-Intel one.

Haha you must be an old geezer like me! . . . funnily enough I've been building PC's for 15 years too (1995) and like you I have learnt a lot of hard lessons in that time . . . started off with the cheapest components possible (Intel and AMD) and had all kinds of problems so decided that buying too cheap was a kinda false economy and that if I wanted any hair left in my head it was probably best to buy more "premium" kit . . . sure enough once I started using more quality components many of the issues I had once suffered from went away . . of course the build costs £££ increased but as you say this premium was worth it for the amount of agro it saved . . . once I found myself in the "Happy place" and the traumas of the past were a distant memory I felt robust enough to once again venture back into cost saving land and with my increased knowledge and the general improvement in technology I found myself pleasantly surprised!

The "modern" AMD chipsets are every bit as good as any Intel chipset I've personally used . . although I've never ventured past socket LGA775 on the Intel side of things, spent 3 years building LGA775 systems based on £35 G31 express chipsets and £90 P45 express chipsets . . . I would say the LGA775 P45 Express chipset will find its place in the all-time-greats alongside the nVidia n-Force2/4 . . .

I realise this is hard for some people to stomach. But hey I have spent upwards of probably £200-300 "extra" in the past. JUST so that I can have a pure Intel system of equivalent performance that isn't going to cause me a load of hassle in neither the short nor long term. But I don't view it as spending "extra" because the only alternative (a non Intel system) isn't actually an alternative to me. I just don't even consider them anymore. Totally written off that option in my mind.

It sounds like in "the past" you have had a real boatload of hassles that you were unable to resolve, I totally empathise with you but this has nothing at all to do with systems in 2010 . . . if you are indeed spending hundreds of pounds £££ extra on "pure" intel systems and getting your friends/clients to spend hundreds of pounds ££ extra to save yourself/them the hassles of the past I think you are wasting money on a phantom that is long dead . . .

if you have "Totally written off" hardware that you have never used I think this is flawed reasoning? . . . you should really use the hardware before you condemn it . . . I would never encourage you or anyone else to use hardware I suspected was sub par or poor quality, never ever ever . . . . I volunteer at least a full working day of my week on these forums to help people with technical issues, overclocking advice and buying advice . . . it would be sheer folly of me to suggest people buy hardware I knew would cause problems as I would just be increasing my workload . . . the only reason I give my time freely to help relieve peoples stress if because I can . . . and there was never anyone there to help me back in the day, I had to sit and suffer in silence, no internet, no forums, just pain!

I encourage you to "sample" some modern AMD hardware . . . it works great and you will be potentially saving anyone who looks to you for buying/technical advice a good sum of money which they could use to live a more enjoyable life . . . . weekend in Paris, some home decoration, car repair, new clothes etc . . . . not as an insurance policy against a phantom which only exists in your mind!

Here's a short summary of the type of problems I have encountered on pretty much every system I have even laid hands on that isn't an Intel chipset:

None of these are relevant anymore mate . . . there is no problems with a "pure" AMD system . . . if you feel you would prefer to pay more money and use only a "pure" INTEL system that’s your call . . . if however you feel you would like to get some hands on experience then clear out all those old cobwebs and "loan" some "modern" kit from OcUK for testing and evaluation you will find out what wonderful technology it actually is . . . and you will be serving those that look up to you as their technical guru a lot better!

Thanks for reading and have a nice day!

 

[easyrider]

if you have "Totally written off" hardware that you have never used I think this is flawed reasoning? . . . you should really use the hardware before you condemn it . . .

I've never ventured past socket LGA775 on the Intel side of things

Big Wayne having no experience in i3,i5 or indeed i7 I think,as you say ,you you should really use the hardware before you condemn it . . . or say its not worth it.

You ask " is i7 worth the premium?"

Just try it

Play a game on an i3 @ 4ghz costing 220 quid for the system and see how much faster it is than Phenom II costing more...

I encourage you to "sample" some modern INTEL hardware . . . it works great is stable as a rock and overclocks like a beast.

 

[NathWraith]

Intel is faster than AMD.

Intel is more versatile than AMD.

AMD is cheaper than Intel.

Neither brand has more issues and problems than the other.

 

[Big.Wayne]

Oh hello NathWraith, we meet at last . . . heard a lot about you!

Intel is faster than AMD

Thanks for that!

Can you be a little more specific please? . . . what tasks is it faster in? . . what percentage faster? . . . any tasks it's slower in?

Intel is more versatile than AMD.

Ah interesting? . . . can you expand on what you mean by "more versatile " please? . . . All I can think of is support for SLI? . . . what else am I missing? . . . it's certainly not processor choice as AM3 appears to be more versatile? . . .

AMD is cheaper than Intel

Intel is more expensive than AMD? . . . looks like we are making some progress in this thread!

Neither brand has more issues and problems than the other.

That would seem to "contradict" what NathanE your fellow OcUk Don is thinking?


To anyone else who is wasting their time trying to "engineer" an ad hominem argument against me personally instead of "contributing" facts and insights to the debate:

I've not "condemned" the Intel® Core™ i7 system once in this debate? . . . to ask the question "Is the premium worth it compared to the AMD® Phenom™ II X6" is nothing more than a question? . . . a question I am hoping can be answered by a thorough investigation into the "facts"

 

[MooMoo444]

Rather than nailbiting over the tasks A is better than B in, weigh in what you use it for. Choose the one that does better from benchmarks showing the tasks you do. Nobody here can 'choose' for you.

It just seems like you're trying too hard to string this thread going, it feels like it's gone in circles three times over.

 

[Big.Wayne]

Hello MooMoo444

Rather than nailbiting over the tasks A is better than B in, weigh in what you use it for. Choose the one that does better from benchmarks showing the tasks you do.

Nailbiting? . . . what makes you say that? . . . I'm just investigating, collecting facts, building up a picture based on actual data instead of "opinions" . . . it's not a problem for me so why is it a problem for you?

Nobody here can 'choose' for you.

Indeed? . . . I never asked anyone to "choose' for me" . . . all I asked for was a little help collecting "Facts" and "analysing" the data?

It just seems like you're trying too hard to string this thread going, it feels like it's gone in circles three times over.

Well thanks for your "opinion" of the debate . . if you feel like contributing any "Facts" that would be appreciated? . . . if you have better things to do then please stop posting in this thread maybe?

 

[easyrider]

Nailbiting? . . . what makes you say that? . . . I'm just investigating, collecting facts, building up a picture based on actual data instead of "opinions" . . .

Opinions of people here on ocuk that actually use the hardware in question is not fact enough for you? But a copy and paste review of some site is fact enough for you?

How much data do you need?

We tested both platforms in real-time together here on these very forums.

Both X6 users like Gareth and i7 user like myself and setter.

These screen shots of doing actual testing runs by real people are not opinions they are facts.

End of.

Stop talking rubbish.

 

[easyrider]

Heres my effort, i7 920 DO@4ghz.

I could go on.

This is not opinion this is fact.

We also came to the conclusion that X6 was marginally faster in core optimised benchies like cinebanch 11.5...

We found and discovered a change when running version 11.5 of cinebench for example. The HT of the i7 didn't yield the same results.

Now if this is not facts then I don't know what is?

 

[Muel]

Blimey Wayne, you really care about this subject.....

At first when I joined here I just thought you were up for a good debate, but tbh it seems you're a bit obsessed to me. :/

In reality in my opinion, it's a pointless debate. AMD is cheaper, Intel is faster and more tech available for them. (Better SLI support etc). Obviously it's a bit different now, because generally the i7 930 and the AMD 1055T are pretty closely matched.

People summed it up like that when I joined over a year ago, and everything I've seen posted since just confirms it in my opinion.

Personally after building my current system and running it for nearly a year, I wish I'd gone Intel.

 

[NathanE]

I only posted as I thought Big.Wayne was making a purchasing decision. It appeared he was asking for opinions on which platform is worth the cash (or extra cash). It appears that this is not the case and that he is actually trying to educate us?

 

[Big.Wayne]

Hello NathanE,

I only posted as I thought Big.Wayne was making a purchasing decision.

I am?

It appeared he was asking for opinions on which platform is worth the cash (or extra cash)

No not at all . . . I'm trying to get my homework done on which system offers my clients the better "value" . . . Not the cheapest build but the best "value" all things considered from the O.P?

It appears that this is not the case and that he is actually trying to educate us?

That's not true? . . . I'm just doing what any buyer spending a great deal of money does . . . my homework . . .the only thing that is different is that instead of doing my research for myself only I'm doing it publicly . . . I was hoping maybe one or two people may chip in but it didn't pan out like that . . . I liked Mr Kruggas Socket LGA1156 suggestion though!

There is nothing wrong with anything I am doing here although a small minority of people are protesting for no good reason?

 

[Dark_Angel]

I only posted as I thought Big.Wayne was making a purchasing decision. It appeared he was asking for opinions on which platform is worth the cash (or extra cash). It appears that this is not the case and that he is actually trying to educate us?

This is what myself and Easy said earlier but our posts got deleted. I'm not 100 percent sure, but I really am dubious if this is really a thread where it's for a particular build.

I think it's just another way of getting a debate.

 

[gareth170]

the problem is Big.Wayne only listens to what he wants.. which isn't right.

 

[easyrider]

It appears that this is not the case and that he is actually trying to educate us?

I spotted this very early on.

What this thread is trying to do is "educate", and I use that term loosely,the Intel users to embrace AMD.

That's basically it.

I encourage you to "sample" some modern AMD hardware

If you have "Totally written off" hardware that you have never used I think this is flawed reasoning? . . . you should really use the hardware before you condemn it . . . I would never encourage you or anyone else to use hardware I suspected was sub par or poor quality, never ever ever . .

Oh Big.Wayne is also trying to offer lifestyle changes in a CPU thread too.

I encourage you to "sample" some modern AMD hardware . . . it works great and you will be potentially saving anyone who looks to you for buying/technical advice a good sum of money which they could use to live a more enjoyable life . . . . weekend in Paris, some home decoration, car repair, new clothes etc . . .

Now the above post by Big.Wayne I don't quite understand. I think if it means I buy an AMD system I can afford a weekend in Paris, or some home decoration..I can service my car and I can buy some new clothes...

Well I can do all those things if I don't buy an AMD system...

Can one buy a weekend trip to Paris for £100?

Home decoration...hmm...what's 100 quid gonna get me? A couple of nice lamps in B&Q?

I own a BMW so it cost's more than 100 quid for a car repair...

I know I can get two pairs of jeans with my savings if I buy an AMD system.

 

[NathanE]

Hello NathanE,


I am?


No not at all . . . I'm trying to get my homework done on which system offers my clients the better "value" . . . Not the cheapest build but the best "value" all things considered from the O.P?


That's not true? . . . I'm just doing what any buyer spending a great deal of money does . . . my homework . . .the only thing that is different is that instead of doing my research for myself only I'm doing it publicly . . . I was hoping maybe one or two people may chip in but it didn't pan out like that . . . I liked Mr Kruggas Socket LGA1156 suggestion though!

There is nothing wrong with anything I am doing here although a small minority of people are protesting for no good reason?

I don't think anybody denies that the AMD systems are good bang per buck.

But most people on OcUK are prepared to spend just that little bit more and get a system that is a bit more special. It's not always about performance either. Sometimes (and often on OcUK) other factors like stability, driver support, total cost of ownership, platform dependability are equally as important. That's my opinion anyway.

I'm pretty much done here now. I wouldn't have posted here if I had known that this wasn't a straight simple "what should I buy" type thread.

 

[arknor]

I only posted as I thought Big.Wayne was making a purchasing decision. It appeared he was asking for opinions on which platform is worth the cash (or extra cash). It appears that this is not the case and that he is actually trying to educate us?

he has managed to , maybe you dont read the forums much but everyone kept going on about amd beeing crap at encoding , rendering etc.

we proved them wrong with the
h264 benchmark.
easyrider then chose a different one.
handbrake amd won again.
easyrider then choose an outdated version of cinebench and intel were faster.
people realised version 10 was OLD once we used 11.5 oh whats this? amd is faster again.

nolonger can people suggest intel for anything other than gaming we killed the myth that intel does it better.

 

[wannabedamned]

Problem is the worlds not black and white is it.

How many programs out there are going to be hex optimized? Anything out there that uses 1-4 cores is going to be better on an I7, That includes the majority of software. Which is infact still single core.

This threads initial spec for intel has 6gb spec'd, which if the system in question is being used to render, then that system would be better than one using 4gb for larger scale rendering.

A 6core MAINLY outperforms an I7 in programs optimized for it. And the reality is that Hex core programs arent mainstream.

How many developers are going to put 6 core optimizing into practice right now? I hope lots, But I can see single and dual core being the majority.

And the core for core performance in I7 is better

Big.Wayne, Do you have a dead line on this spec. I'd recommend for a rendering machine more ram and a proper GPU not an ATI or Nvidia. What software is the end user going to be using?? As it would be an idea to find out if its even capable of taking advantage of the hex core, or if its scheduled to be incorporated

 

[Big.Wayne]

Hello NathanE, before you go . . .

I don't think anybody denies that the AMD systems are good bang per buck.

That's is not what this thread is about? . . . I made this thread to "examine" what the benefits are of spending approx £156 extra on an Intel® Core™ i7 would bring? . . . I mean fair enough £156 smackers may not be a lot of money to some people but it's a chunk of change to me and my clients . . . all I am doing is trying to assertain what extra "Value" this added expense will bring?

Now forgive me if I choose not to believe someone that spending this extra money is a no brainer and I shouldn't even question the many wiseman who are trying to "enforce" their opinion on me? . . . I don't make my purchasing decisions based on what people of "questionable" knowledge tell me? . . . is that so wrong of me?

Am I so foolish to actually want to know the "facts"?

But most people on OcUK are prepared to spend just that little bit more and get a system that is a bit more special

That's fine . . . and if I finish looking at the "facts" and I personally deem the Intel® Core™ i7 system to be worth the extra investment I'll gladly pay the premium . . . over the four systems I'm intending to build the price premium is a rather large sum of money and I want to be totaly sure I making the right choice? . . . . a system being "special" is surely a subjective and personal thing no? . . . I don't need someone else to tell me what is and what is not "special" . . . do you?

It's not always about performance either. Sometimes (and often on OcUK) other factors like stability, driver support, total cost of ownership, platform dependability are equally as important. That's my opinion anyway

That's totally fine and I'm not gonna insult you and concoct all kinds of accusations against you because you feel that way? . . . however the same cannot be said about a handful of forums members who throughout the course of this thread have been rude beyond belief because I choose to pay more attention to "facts" then their opinion?

stability, driver support, total cost of ownership, platform dependability are very important factors I agree but I do not personally see how this is relevant to me looking at both AMD® Phenom™ II X6 and Intel® Core™ i7 systems? . . . As far as I know none of these factors you mention are more relevant on one system than another? . . . unless you are suggesting that the AMD® Phenom™ II X6 system will suffer from any of the above?

Are you suggesting that? . . . is that based on personal experience? . . . have you got a single "fact" to back up any of this? . . if so let me know please!

[Off Topic]

I'm pretty much done here now. I wouldn't have posted here if I had known that this wasn't a straight simple "what should I buy" type thread.

I'd really appreciate it if I was allowed to cooly, calmly and collectively continue my research without this handful of NaySayers being allowed to run amok, throw accusations, conspiracy theories, personal insults, personal attacks and general negativity? . . . their setting a terrible example and making a mockery of the forum rules . . . why do the Dons's not deal with these people who are being blatantly "rude" to somebody who has done nothing but be polite and posted a few performance charts? . . . seriously can you get a Don to read carefully through this thread and you will see what I mean? . . . it's such a shame that these once friendly forums are being run into the ground by a small minority who has taken it upon themselves to attack anyone who doesn't accept there word as gospel?



You can contact me in via Trust and I will tell you "exactly" who the troublemakers are!