**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

I said: "Pros? Does that mean somone who can click build, research, harvest the fastest"

literally i could not believe what i was seeing ... i was watching it after an hour long game of COH (lvl 14 2v2at) and i thought.. 'seriously, people actually enjoy to sit here and harvest for minutes and minutes doing literally NOTHING but harvesting...and then blob up and walk straight into the opponent base defence and kill everything.. uhh what?'

true gfx look nice but its psuedo strategy at best.
 
Ah, Nickg, you're ignorance is most amusing :D

If SC2 requires no skill, you should easily be able to beat me... if you have even played the game. If not, then you are in no position to comment, based solely on a video you have watched.
 
Lurkers are the "counter" to M&M, and need to be placed and manipulated with intelligence. However, an intelligent player can micro the M&M to make the medics damage sponges, and dance the marines around the lurker spines.

no sorry its nowhere near the same.

the lack of an environment to use, such as cover, Negative, light, medium, heavy etc accentuates the flatness of it all. you can say they are dancing this or that...until you play COH or similar at a high level i dont think you'll grasp what strategy and micro really is.
 
If SC2 requires no skill, you should easily be able to beat me... if you have even played the game. If not, then you are in no position to comment, based solely on a video you have watched.

thats not true, anyone can get a good build order, or practice the same build order to be faster and more spammery than the next person. thats not skill. thats just a to b routine made more efficient.
 
I'd show and explain the depth of micro and strategy but you are obviously ignorant to SC in general, and you really don't have an open mind to learn, so it would be a waste of effort.
 
some comments from around the web:

"Starcraft is a baby RTS and Company of Heroes is a giant. Back in 1998 all RTS games followed the same formula. Resource gatherers, 2-4 types of resources, RPS gameplay, etc.. Company of Heroes is the golden product that came out of many years of "genre formation".

It's just silly to say Starcraft is a better RTS than Company of Heroes. It is a damn fine RTS for its time, but its time has passed."

"Starcraft is a simple (yet elegant) game compared to today's RTS but it's best at what it does: providing a fun, balanced, no-gimmick gameplay with a strategist depth that is often lost on outsiders and newcomers."


i think a lot of ppl refer to COH as a tactical RTS and SC as a old school; RTS...

i guess its apple and pears but where you need more tactics and micro, for me it is more rewarding and therefore more user controlled, and better
 
i watched a game of starcraft2 on youtube last night..

all i could do was feel pity for the people playing this game. it is so basic, who can build the biggest army fastest...and then walk into their opponent base and win.

there are no tactics, no micro per se' to use. no fighting for resources no early skirmishes. infact the enemy did not see each other until they both had an army...

one person walked to the others base, then some mega flying machine of doom appeared and blew everything up.

then maurauded to the other persons base who built some seemingly useless Anti Aircraft that still couldnt shoot this plane down.. followed by a black hole of doom.

No cover, no real strategy, no tactics - just blob an army and rush the other persons base defences - theres only 1 way in no reason to NOT go straight to their base... just who has the quickest build order...

this is like command and conquer but possibly a bit more basic.

COH is a wold away from this.

What planet are you from? Have you actually ever played it?

Its the best RTS ever made for a reason. not because of popularity, but because of alllll the things you jsut said don't exist in the game :/ they evidently do, otherwise people wouldn't play it

its not that skilled or fast paced/ the 2 teams didnt even leave their base for like the first 5 minutes let alone show any micro or skill in the game i saw

go watch a pro game of COH, then u see, fast paced, skill, micro, macro, counters tiers and epich battles.



im not joking it was the most basic thing id ever seen. is it for 12 year old or koreans who just want to spamalot of stuff over and over again. see above, go watch some COH find out what a strategic RTS is about.

tetris is one of the most popular games ever, yet is one of the least complex....

CS and CS:S not complex but popular....

lets not confuse complexity with popularity here. the game is popular cos u can just spam units and more units and then do it again. with minimal actual effort, micro or true 'skill'

I'd suggest you go play it, or watch a replay that isnt two eejits playing the game.

by no means am i slating CoH off, because el;ts face it, its a great game, but its still on the other end of the RTS spectrum in comparison to SC/SC:BW/SCII.

gameplay may seem simple to you but good lord you couldn't be more wrong, i'd love to see you play it ^^

I feel sorry for narrow minded people, its unlucky.



Nail and head come to mind.
 
thats not true, anyone can get a good build order, or practice the same build order to be faster and more spammery than the next person. thats not skill. thats just a to b routine made more efficient.

You just banged the nail smartly and surly on the napper!
 
oh i dont deny you could find it fun.

but its not as though you have units with higher armour at the front than at the back, or that can lay barbed wire and mines, or destructable cover, or hand throw grenades tht need to be aimed or could be dodged.

or mortars to dislodge that annoying MG42 in a house

COH isnt A beats B, its A beats B in some circumstances but that you can skill your way into B beating A through clever use of cover, tactics disguise etc. its on a different level of strategy altogether.



thats whats good about COH, you only build things in your base because you need them to build new units...the whole fight is about the resouces OUTSIDE of your base. so until you hit T3 or T4, you probably cant attack their base, but neither do you need to. or would you want to. the idea is a map with shared resources across it, that you must fight to capture. not resources in your base so u can sit there, having not left your base creating an invincible army...

As kreeeee has pointed out you are describing Starcraft.

It really depends on the SC2 Replay you are watching on Youtube. Assuming you are watching Joe Blogs Playing John Smith you probably won't see much skill or co-ordination

If you are watching TheLittleOne (TLO) Vs WhiteRa you will see a tonne of good Micro and good macro. But often times in the game there is more posturing and positioning than actual battles or harassment (at the top level) Some games seem to be never ending fights but others seem to be a lot of not much then one player wins. But at the core of both fights are a tonne of subtle counters and counter counters, micro, macro and map control

Going on Kreeeee's Zerg Vs Terran SC1 analogy in SC2 if Terran went Heavy marines the Zerg would typically either got mass roaches or banelings.

Roachs are a heavy armored unit which you put at the front of your army to soak up damage (you would put weaker ranged units behind them) and can take a massive amount of marine fire.
Banelings are kamikaze units that absolutely **** light infantry (marines)
Terran either has to build a new unit to counter the Banelings or Roaches (the Marauder or Banshee are good choices) Marauder being an armored ground unit the banshee being an air to ground unit (banelings and roaches cant shoot up) The maurader can out range the roach and baneling so it can "Kite" it by shooting and moving back shooting and moving back it also takes a **** tone of banelings to kill a Marauder so you could put them at the front of your marines, absorb all the baneling damage and then carry on.

Alternatively to building a new unit (because you cant just magic a usefull quantity right then and there as Terran) you could attempt to Kite the roaches or Banelings with the Marines, as they outrage both. (I think both banelings and Roaches are faster than marines so its more about minimizing losses/inflicting maximum damage to the opponent and buying time for re-enforcements than it is about winning the fight outright)


Also any 2v2 3v3 4v4 games can be disregarded at this stage for strategic merit. I'd be willing to bet most are cheese or all ins, rather than finely honed strategic engagements.

Furthermore in terms of terrain, there is high ground advantages, and there is creep to contend with (creep makes Zerg more efficient against non-zerg opponents)

I'm not comparing Starcraft to other games. I am discussing Starcraft as a game on its own merits.
 
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literally i could not believe what i was seeing ... i was watching it after an hour long game of COH (lvl 14 2v2at) and i thought.. 'seriously, people actually enjoy to sit here and harvest for minutes and minutes doing literally NOTHING but harvesting...and then blob up and walk straight into the opponent base defence and kill everything.. uhh what?'

true gfx look nice but its psuedo strategy at best.

your watching the wrong videos matey. dont comment unless you do some real research. just ignore above comments from myself, their wasted on you.

Wouldn't even bother wasting your time either kreee/krono
 
Oh, I certainly agree that the fundamentals are more simple than other RTS games, but the micro and strategies are immense, and are developed outside of an artificially more complex design.

If that even makes sense...

Edit:
gameplay with a strategist depth that is often lost on outsiders and newcomers."

I think that says it all. StarCraft is a very deep game, but it's not an "obvious" depth.
 
your watching the wrong videos matey. dont comment unless you do some real research. just ignore above comments from myself, their wasted on you.

Wouldn't even bother wasting your time either kreee/krono

No, he is just watching the videos he wants to watch and ignoring those that go against his points i.e. a COH fanboy. Can we just ignore him and get back to Starcraft? You are all wasting your time with him.
 
So what happens if I practice a fantastic build order then someone does something different to everyone else. My build order has been thrown right out the window and I need to learn a new counter to my opponents style.

Personally I think people are just trolling and should not both posting "COH is better than SC2" in an SC2 thread. Just stick to your COH thread instead. You could also maybe try playing some Starcraft in leagues before posting any more tripe
 
i think a lot of ppl refer to COH as a tactical RTS and SC as a old school; RTS...

They're both brilliant games. I'm not quite sure why in your mind one has to be vastly superior to the other.

No offence mate but you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Just because you can't see the skill when watching videos doesn't mean it is not there, you just lack the knowledge and understanding to appreciate what is actually going on. Nothing wrong with that, I don't either.
 
Roachs are a heavy armored unit which you put at the front of your army to soak up damage (you would put weaker ranged units behind them) and can take a massive amount of marine fire.

that is the most basic and simple tactic ever employed. how about making that work but using micro to do it better?

how about you send your inf in first to find the geshutz, it fires, you know unless its vetted that it could be another 7 seconds before it reloads and fires, so you micro your tank in, pop off a shot and then back it out again before the geshutz is reloaded (the geshutz is a tank hunter). you know the geshutz has no turret so can be circle strafed by an M10 unless some infantry is supporting with shreks but wait i can run some over? oh WTF thats a cloaked PAK BANG BANG BANG my m10 is dead.

or how about having to use your infantry to get close enough to a panther, sticky bomb the thing from ultra close range, then having to micro your AT guns up, pop off some shots but the protect them from getting owned by some Volks or grens or even mortared, and then havign to manouver your own tanks in behind th (hopefully) damaged engine panther before it gets fixed, or before it can escape because its frontal armour will bounce tanks shots off the front all day long without dying.

what about trying to flank an Mg42 that shoots further than you or it can actually see and that supresses rifles in zero cover (leaving them squirming on the floor) very quickly, having to use a 2nd or even a 3rd squad to try and get to the side, or around the back of it. can you get around the Mg42 unseen to be able togeshipple it from behind, or to get that nade off - and decrew the weapon so u can steal it.. or will it manage to retreat out. or will your baited unit be able to survive long enough to even give you a chance to flank?

what if your flanking move is cut off by mines, or barbed wire - or if theres a bunker in the way so you need flamers or a mortar, except you cant build them just yet?


I think that says it all. StarCraft is a very deep game, but it's not an "obvious" depth.

no thats why i put both quotes in NOT just one to back up my Point of View as i am not a troll or a fanboy.

but the reason its popular is because it is easy to get into fun balanced, not necessarily because it takes more micro, more tactics, or more skill?
 
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