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Really now? Massively slower than what exactly?
You have to remember that these are the words of a self confessed AMD share holder who claims to have over 20K worth of AMD stock. I'd argue that it is hard to make a subjective post (not that they even come close) in such circumstance and are not the words of somebody I would trust for impartial analysis of the industry. Each post always paints ATI in the best possible light, and Nvidia in the worst. It gets tiresome after a while.
Drunkenmaster likes to construct a post that makes him feel better about his purchase.
Drunkenmaster likes to construct a post that makes him feel better about his purchase.
I think drunkenmaster is an ATI/AMD fanboy, all I get from reading his posts is how nvidia are terrible and how they are going under.
...right.
Lets pick one of the easier points to shoot down in flames.
Really now? Massively slower than what exactly?
To say Intel and NVIDIA aint exactly best friends is an under statement! NVIDIA would have to be on their knees before they sell up.
Hmmm, from that comment I would guestimate you need to do a little more research before bringing counter arguments to the table, else you won't be shooting any points down in flames.
GF104 has larger die than a 5870 but sell for how much compared to a 5870?
the gf104 is massively slower than cores that are smaller and sold at a higher cost
So which competing part is it massively slower than?
If I wanted to read AMD propaganda I would visit Semiaccurate.com.
See you said this, for a long time, every time Larabee was brought up, however their Sandybridge GPU shows a MASSIVE, monumental leap forwards in low end gpu power, also most importantly, Anand who used to mock Intel IGP's for giving awful IQ and dodgey drivers suggest their new GPU is massively massively better and giving equal IQ aswell as performance to a 5450.
Lets be honest, theres VERY little difference between a small 12core Sandybridge gpu and sticking one with 10 units stuck together on a discrete card.
They've clearly addressed, significantly, IQ, power, ability to deliver it and considering the supposed power of Sandybridge chips, their 12core gpu seems set to use very little power, to the degree that you could stick 20 of these units together and have a workable product.
I mean a Fermi high end and low end, a Nvidia IGP or AMD IGP is little more than just one or two units of a high end card, the architecture is all but the same.
Also no, no one said anything similar at the FX launch, no one predicted Nvidia's downfall or their unwillingness to change their ways, it was one bad product, with a good one before and after it. the 280gtx through to the current gen ALL show the same signs of sticking to certain design philosophy that has made them progressively worse over 3 years.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/162?vs=180
The performance per mm2 of GF104 is pretty ugly considering it's actually larger than the 5870, however Nvidia have given it a very attractive price, hence why they are probably not making money on it.
So which competing part is it massively slower than?
They still have a lot of very smart people working for them, and if AMD can bring things back from the brink of debtageddon (with the help of $1.2Bn in Intel hush money) then why do some persist in constant doommongering?
Don't forget Intel could simply buy all of Nvidia's shares in a hostile take over. It doesn't have to be agreed.
I'll not argue that when it comes to things like performance/mm2 Nvidia's solutions leave a lot to be desired, but only a fool would think that this will be an unchanging situation. They still have a lot of very smart people working for them, and if AMD can bring things back from the brink of debtageddon (with the help of $1.2Bn in Intel hush money) then why do some persist in constant doommongering?
Indeed, even though public listed someone will have a commanding share
Because the perf/mm2 isn't the only issue Nv has, they have a whole storm of challenges about to arrive at it's front door, namely loosing most of it's current revenue stream (low end).
But also many other things for example like surviving the 40nm downpours.
If Amd's 6000 series is even more effiecient per mm2 then they can afford to squeeze GF104 into a loss making product while staying just as profitable as it is now. GF104 only needs to make a slight loss to have catastrophic effects on Nv's cashflow far more damaging than the GTX465/470 etc. due to the fact it's a high volume part and the losses are much more scalable.
Nvidia would then be forced to reduce production of GF104 to create artificial demand in order to keep prices above Amd's and therefore profitable (or break-even), this unused TSMC allocation will likely then be handed to Amd.
The above means Nv is going to be unlikely to recover market share and lose allot of clout with regards to putting weight, cash & resources aside to influence developers to optimise for Nv architectures.
This will put further downward pressure on Nv pricing and exacerbate their losses or they will have to further scale back production which then turns into a viscous cycle.
It get's even worse for Nv if we take GF106 etc into account as they will have the same problems as GF104.
If Nv can produce a Gf104 based GTX475 in high enough Qty's due to increasing yields so there are more 475 being produced than 460's then this may be a band-aid for Nvidia's bottom line, that is currently lined up against a wall.
The biggest saving grace for Nv is the professional market, but there has been talk of Amd's intentions to push hard in this Nv stronghold, the VERY last thing Nv wants is a price war in this market like when RV770 launched in the gamer market.
There are many other chinks in the armour but to continue would just be too doom and gloom even for a realist.
As I understand it though the bulk of NVs profilt and AMDs from a GPU perspective comes from the bottom end of the graphics market, please correct me if I am wrong? As I genuinely don't know. I suppose what I am saying is from a business perspective the pro market and high end gaming isn't going to sustain a company the size of NV?You make some very good points. Lots of use of the word if to paint a possible worst case scenario but still some interesting points.
I'll raise the issue of the pro market. It will take much more than a price war for AMD to break into NV's market share. Most of what they currently release is nothing more than a warmed over gaming part with a much higher price tag. Where are all the certified drivers? Where are the engineers working with end users and software vendors? It takes more than just price to break into a market ruled by reputation, and at the moment that is something AMD have very little of.