Pre-bed protein - important or bro science?

[Skeptic]

Alright guys,

Usually I eat a tub of cottage cheese before bed, along with some flax, a bit of fish oil and a multi. However, I've been reading recently that pre-bed protein is not actually that important for a casual trainer, and is even less important if the daily macros are met.

So, is there any evidence that it's actually important? I'll probably still have something but I was just interested.

Starting to stress a lot less about nutrition nowadays, as long as the food is plentiful and clean, not worrying about timings too much etc.

 

[Skull]

Well, what sort of training are you doing? How are you casual about it?

 

[Skeptic]

I mean casual as in, not top level professional. I didn't mean casual in the sense of just using the gym for fun.

I do a 3/4 day split, 3 days compound, sometimes olympic lifts, depending on mood. Diet is pretty good, too. But, if say by midnight (bedtime) I've eaten enough protein for the day, then should I have 20g before bed, or wait to eat at 7 when I wake.

Basically, will missing out on pre-bed protein make any difference whatsoever?

 

[Skull]

There's still a pretty large gradient between a casual gym-goer and a top professional, but anyway...

Yeah it would make a tiny difference, but if you're not trying to grow/recover/improve lifts as fast as possible, it wouldn't do you any harm.

It is those tiny differences that cumulatively add up to big ones though.

 

[drunkenmaster]

The simple science of it is this, if you're trying ti build muscle, prevent breakdown, and be healthy the if the average person eats at 8-10pm somewhere, and you're waking up at 7-8pm after going to sleep 12-1am. Then you're going 10-11 hours without a new source of protein, as it only seems to take 3-4 hours to be absorbed, max, that means your body is going without protein for a fairly large portion of the day, and considering, remember, that you do MOST of your body repairs/healing/growing while asleep, the potentially the largest and EASIEST gains to be made are simply by keeping your body well fed with the tools it requires at the moment it works its hardest to rebuild you.

Remember even after you start eating again it will take several hours for all that new protein in the morning to be absorbed.

Macro's don't mean much, you could eat every calorie, gram of protein, carb, fat in a single meal, doesn't mean your body will make as good use as it would in 6 equally spaced out smaller meals, infact, it without question wouldn't. The main reason to eat a little bit of protein as late as you possible can, is just to give your body the best situation it can, it really should mean less time, effort and work to get to the point you want, which really is the goal for anyone, casual person looking to get fitter, guy wanting to get as ripped as he can, guy wanting to get into as good shape as he can for holiday, or professional athlete.

Its not like its hard to eat something right before bed, now what some people do is wake up in the middle of the night and down a protein shake and go back to bed, some people set alarms, and some people are just guys who always get up to pee and it takes them 30 extra seconds. That, for me, would be the difference between "ultra extreme athlete/power lifter/competitor" and Joe bloggs who wants a six pack to impress the ladies.

 

[Freefaller]

Basic idea.

GH is released within 30-60 mins of you falling asleep.

If you're training hard (even if you don't) your body fixes itself at night. GH is key for your body's growth and regeneration (fixing all the tears in your muscle fibres, and other functions in your body) - hence why sleep is considered the best time to recover and grow, because, it is.

To capitalise on the GH release which enhances protein metabolism in your body, taking some slow release protein before bed is helpful. More noticeable the harder you train but still important.

Carbs (though protein too but on a smaller scale) produce spikes in insulin, and elevated insulin levels inhibit GH release and protein metabolism in your body.

Those are just 2 very very basic facts but also only a VERY small part of the whole picture. However, significant enough (IMO) to pay attention to.

 

[Smit]

Macro's don't mean much, you could eat every calorie, gram of protein, carb, fat in a single meal, doesn't mean your body will make as good use as it would in 6 equally spaced out smaller meals, infact, it without question wouldn't.

Recent studies would suggest you are wrong and they have found that eating just 3 times per day actually resulted in no difference than eating more often as long as the overall intake was the same.

I don't believe anyone knows for sure which is better. Whatever works for you personally is THE only thing to worry about IMO. Everyone is different and will handle things different and there are scientific studies to support both sides (eating more often vs eating more per meal but less often)

 

[N19h7m4r3]

For powerlifting I find that if I don't, DOMS stay around much longer and feel far more crippling.

So a slow release Protein is quite helpful.

 

[Skull]

Recent studies would suggest you are wrong and they have found that eating just 3 times per day actually resulted in no difference than eating more often as long as the overall intake was the same.

I don't believe anyone knows for sure which is better. Whatever works for you personally is THE only thing to worry about IMO. Everyone is different and will handle things different and there are scientific studies to support both sides (eating more often vs eating more per meal but less often)

You do need to be careful with these bodybuilding-related studies though, because they usually take place on untrained individuals who lift for 45 minutes twice a week, for 10 weeks. That person's body is going to work quite a bit differently from someone who has been lifting 5 times a week for 75 mins for the last 5 years, as far as nutrient uptake/usage is concerned.

 

[mrthingyx]

You do need to be careful with these bodybuilding-related studies though, because they usually take place on untrained individuals who lift for 45 minutes twice a week, for 10 weeks. That person's body is going to work quite a bit differently from someone who has been lifting 5 times a week for 75 mins for the last 5 years, as far as nutrient uptake/usage is concerned.

Protein intake between athletes training for strength and those not doing so only varies by 10-15% at the top level, so...

 

[Skull]

Well then it would be nice to see the actual studies then so we can see what is being tested for and who is being tested. At the moment we've just got 3rd hand evidence saying it makes "No difference".

 

[Cristian]

^this.

If you take an individual who hasn't trained before and weighs around 60-70kg, then he will need around 100-120grams of protein tops. Of course there is no need to split that into 6 meals, because even at 3 meals a day it's 33-40grams of protein per meal so it's not too shabby. In addition, progress will still be fantastic because they go from "never trained" to a proper training regime and a reasonably good diet macro wise.

But take a guy like Freefaller who'd need around 200grams of protein per day and you'll see that 3 meals ain't the brightest idea.
And to think that some recommend eating everything in just ONE large meal (3k+ calories) and thinks it's ok muscle building wise makes me smile.

 

[MoNkeE]

Pardon the complete noob-y question then, as I've only recently started seriously trying to put on muscle...... What food groups/items are slow releasing proteins?

 

[Skull]

Casein takes a while to digest, cottage cheese is a good place to get it.

 

[mrthingyx]

Well then it would be nice to see the actual studies then so we can see what is being tested for and who is being tested. At the moment we've just got 3rd hand evidence saying it makes "No difference".

I spent six months researching it as part of my degree. The information is out there if you're that interested. But I suspect most people aren't.

Bottom line? Big protein intake gets passed out through kidneys, but some is absorbed through muscle hypertrophy:

- The intake has to be balanced in order to actually achieve statistically significant differences (i.e. get the amino acids balanced with the right nutrients to pomote most efficient uptake);
- The protein intake volume apparently has little bearing on expressed strength, but more to do with size (which is where the comment about 10-15% comes from);
- "Supplements" are just that: if the diet is good and appropriate for what the athlete is attempting to achieve, then supplements won't make much difference (essentially, if the diet is balanced in terms of carbs, fats, proteins, etc., then the user shouldn't need supplements).

Most of the big differences occur where a non-athlete suddenly decides to start training and sorts their diet out: the training, supported by good nutrition, produces interesting initial gains. Alternatively, if the athlete's diet is rubbish, then supplements will help.

What supplements can do is alter the dynamics of energy metabolism, etc. within the body, allowing it to be more effcient in the way it actually stores 'energy' as such. Whey protein is something that does this.

It is also important to note that things like protein supplements do promote improved muscle growth in elderly people (as their metabolism is not as efficient as somebody a lot younger), but the ratio of evidence for anything happening in the young/middle age range is tiny compared to the stack of evidence against.

If you want more, I'll go through the academic rigmarole of providing you journa citations which you won't be able to read (unless you have appropriate access) and may not understand even if you do (not being patronising, but most people don't bother with the Scrabble-fest that is biochemistry).

 

[Skull]

So you mean there is a clinical study of two groups of bodybuilders, both eating say 3000 calories and 200g of protein a day, one group eating getting it all in 3 meals, one spreading them out, and there was no measurable difference in strength increases, and a 10-15% increase in hypertrophy?

 

[mrthingyx]

So you mean there is a clinical study of two groups of bodybuilders, both eating say 3000 calories and 200g of protein a day, one group eating getting it all in 3 meals, one spreading them out, and there was no measurable difference in strength increases, and a 10-15% increase in hypertrophy?

Nope, there are studies which examine the diets of strength athletes (not body builders) and compare them against regular athletes and find there is only a 10-15% difference in protein in take to achieve the difference.

There are quite a few studies that show protein supplements, etc. produce noticeable improvements in older people's (50+) muscle mass and strength gains, but this does not occur in younger people.

The key thing to remember is that a balanced diet with enough calories to satisfy your body's needs will be sufficient for most people. Spreading out the intake reduces the likelihood of insulin spikes and ineffecient metabolism.

However, if you hit it hard between 8-10pm, your body will need its nutrition in line with that time period, so probably about lunch time (as your body has to digest the food that's going in). It is also useful to bear in mind that keeping your carb levels high enough to help you train longer is very important, too.

Your body will be burning carbs and fat long after you stop exercising to make up for the energy deficit caused by exercise, too.

 

[Smit]

Read up on the study: The Meal Frequency Project (2008)
http://www.duo.uio.no/sok/work.html?WORKID=71651

Conclusion: In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle- and strength gain from strength training when in positive energy balance than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. The reason why we draw opposite conclusions from short-term studies needs further investigation. More long-term studies are needed to determine the optimal meal frequency for ultimate gain in LBM from strength training, and larger groups may be needed to determine an effect of meal frequency on fat mass. The changes in fat mass had large variations within and between the groups, making it difficult to draw any conclusions.

In other words, inconclusive. Albeit 12 weeks isn't exactly long term but would be interested to see if it was consistent if it went on for longer.
What works for one person won't necessarily be what works for someone else. You have to find what works for you and stick with it.

 

[Freefaller]

Remember that your body can only metabolise so much protein in one go - hence why a lot of it is passed through the kidneys. It's a bell curve distribution, with 30-40g being "optimal" - hence that "magic" number that's bandied about.

Why tax your body more than it needs to? It's far better to let your body slowly develop and deal with the nutrition more effectively than force feeding it.

 

[aftershxck]

Can someone please explain or direct me towards a good link explaining the word 'macro' or 'macro nutrients' etc. as mentioned in the OP and several other times elsewhere in the sports arena - my googling isn't bringing up much info!