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Can a second 5970 fit on my motherboard?

Just thought there's something else you might need to know. While the 5000 series cards are great for games in general, however it leave something to be desired in the area of tesselation performance if comparing to the Nvidia's GTX470/480 card (which the design heavily focused on tessellation).

Besides Metro2033, there's not really another game that use tessellations like the way it does (yet), and tessellations is not a neccessity and can be disabled like wedgie already pointed out (yes tessellations does make thing look nicer, but the huge impact it has on the frame rate simply not worth it for the HD5000 cards). HD6000 series would hopefully sort out the tessellations weakness of the HD5000 series.

Another thing is that, people is still having doubt of/if heavy use of tessellations for games would ever become mainstream (not just 1 or 2 games).

Looking into that game, it appears that the game is very unforgiving in general, and it may be the coding by the developers that may be some of the cause. If he can now sit down at one of the rare times he gets to play his games and he's happy that's fine by me. ;)


will you marry me;) what a wife

:rolleyes: Sorry been there, got the ring. :( Unless you're insanely handsome & rich.... :p


Laura just to put your mind at ease, if you hav'nt bought the Card and PSU yet.

You will have upto 7 days from delivery to inform the place you buy from, that you want to return, if you want to return that is, and the items can be opened and tested.

You just have to make sure the packaging is'nt damaged, and everything that came with it is still there.

Now im fairly sure this won't happen, as he will be well chuffed like the rest have said, but just wanted to let you know that you can return within 7 days of delivery, even when they have been opened.

Thanks for that, as I don't know how it works with computer stuff really. They all seem to say if it's opened you can't return it.

I feel bad saying it on a computer store forum, but I didn't get neither from here as I found them cheaper else where.... but any moderators sharpening their blades please take note we have spend thousands at Overclockers in the past. :D (honestly we have :( ) The graphics card I'm not worried about as I got that from Amazon, but the PSU I got from a store from ebay. It appears that they have got good reviews with a 99.7% positive feedback so I'm hoping they are okay.
 
They all seem to say if it's opened you can't return it.

Yes, they do. But this really only acts to discourage returns. They cannot legally enforce this policy, as the Distance Selling Regulations (usually just shortened to 'DSR') provide the buyer with seven days with which to test their purchase under reasonable conditions, as long as it was bought online or via mail order etc. So long as the items are returned "in pristine condition" then the retailer cannot legally reject the return, even if the goods have been opened and used.

I'm not 100% sure on the postage cost liability though... The buyer is definitely liable for the outward postage, but I'm not sure about the return postage. Google will probably give you an answer if you need to find out.


By the way, I have the AX1200 power supply, and it's ace. Incredibly stable voltage no matter what I throw at it, and all operating on a single rail. It is the pimp-daddy of PSUs. I'm sure it will be worth the wait.
 
AMD and nvidia drivers are 50 50.

Have you heard of user error?.


I am sure you're probably 100% right, the only games I usually play on a computer is Mahjong Titans and Solitaire. But my husband who like many others have been using ATI since the 80's feel that some of the drivers at the moment feel rushed. It's great that ATI release drivers every month, it shows their support to their consumers. However, some people are saying that because Nvidia doesn't do this, they have more time to spend on their drivers making sure they are more stable.


Yes, they do. But this really only acts to discourage returns. They cannot legally enforce this policy, as the Distance Selling Regulations (usually just shortened to 'DSR') provide the buyer with seven days with which to test their purchase under reasonable conditions, as long as it was bought online or via mail order etc. So long as the items are returned "in pristine condition" then the retailer cannot legally reject the return, even if the goods have been opened and used.

I'm not 100% sure on the postage cost liability though... The buyer is definitely liable for the outward postage, but I'm not sure about the return postage. Google will probably give you an answer if you need to find out.


By the way, I have the AX1200 power supply, and it's ace. Incredibly stable voltage no matter what I throw at it, and all operating on a single rail. It is the pimp-daddy of PSUs. I'm sure it will be worth the wait.


Thanks Duff-Man, I'm starting to think that most my Business Studies A-level has gone straight out of the window after fifteen years. :rolleyes: Though I do know that there are a lot of warranties etc. that we are entitled to and are shamefully not made aware of.


One return issue that has annoyed me recently is that I went to return a game for my husband to the store GAME. After going through around eight (he said/ moaned) attempts to install the game which eventually seemed to succeed, he was then to have numerous crashings and errors. After talking to the help line, he was told that it was everything but the games fault. Even stating that his Graphic card wasn't good enough and he needed more then a 1.5TB hard drive. Looking on some forums he found that it was indeed the game itself and wanted to return it for his money back.

However in the two GAME stores I went into, one told me they would only change the disc (& no cash refunds are allowed for PC games) and the man in the next store (who annoyingly phoned the same store as before to ask) said you could IF the new disk I had was also faulty.

I was told this was due to piracy reasons, even the man in the second store couldn't understand it as he said piracy in the console industry was virtually just as rife. So is this true then? Is it a new policy, as I've never seemed to have this problem before. :confused:
 
My apologies, I feel terrible keep asking millions of questions to you poor guys! As the GPU is coming probably tomorrow unlike the new PSU which is coming hopefully later in the week, would I be able to quickly test the 5970 crossfire on his existing 750w PSU (I think it is too a Corsair)? Or would we need to wait untill we get the 1200w? I only ask as I think I read that it ideally needs at least a 850w.

Also with his work he uses a lot of power hungry 3D animation/ modeling software. Would it beneficial for him to buy himself another 6GB of RAM in the future or not? :)
 
It would be really really close on that PSU.

RAM wise depends on his software and habits i.e. if he likes to open a ton of things and leave them open while working on stuff it would help a lot, if hes tidy and only works with the stuff he immediate needs then 4gig would probably be enough.
 
Didt read the entire thread but just a heads up as i have 2 UD5's in front of me as we speak. If you use the last slot pcie on the motherboard a long card like a 5870/5970 will cover the pwr/sw/reset which will mean the gfx will not seat in the slot as the wires & plastic caps push the butt of the card out :(
 
Asking millions of questions is what these forums are for - don't feel bad. At least you are polite and literate! :p

About the PSU question... it will be very close. I'm sure you could boot into windows, and probably run a few games, but at full power draw you would likely be approaching 750W. If it's a corsair TX or HX PSU, then it can probably manage a little over 750W in reality, but you always run the risk of it cutting out on you. It probably won't damage the PSU, but then you will be left wondering whether the fault is with the PSU or with the new graphics card. Unless you're really itching to test it out, I would just wait and give him both the PSU and graphics card together.

As for the question regarding the game return... I have no idea I'm afraid. I know that shops are very reluctant to accept returns of any game that has a CD key, since most games are effectively tied to their key, and a game with a used key is worthless to the retailer. But, I don't know what the law actually is on these things. A quick call to consumer direct (08454 04 05 06) would probably clear it up very quickly. They are a government institution, and I have always found them to be helpful and specific about anything relating to consumer rights. If a retailer continues to cause you problems after you follow their advice, they will follow up for you via trading standards. Businesses can ignore you, but they can't ignore trading standards ;)


By the way, the distance selling regulations came into effect in 2000, so your memory of your 15-yr old business studies A-level is not to be blamed!
 
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It's the second one the Antec 1200. :D

I've heard about the backstabbings of ATI & Nvidia games. If it's ATI gamers moaning that they can't get NVIDIA PhysX, it seems that both companies shove in dodgy codes into their games to cause problems to players with the other manufacturers card. :(

Unfortunately, nVidia have been at the centre of a few controversial goings on recently. One is the butchering of DX10, but that's vague and not very clear what was going on, another involved Assassin's Creed and DX10.1, where nVidia didn't like the performance increase DX10.1 had on ATi cards (nVidia seemingly couldn't implement DX10.1 and therefore trashed it with claims of how it was pointless). The next is Batman Arkham Asylum, where seemingly there was a bit of code that meant AA (anti-aliasing) would work on only nVidia graphics cards, nVidia claimed the had helped rocksteady with AA code, it turns out they didn't, it was a simple generic AA implementation path, Eidos and nVidia blamed eachother.

As for PhysX, yeah, it only runs on nVidia hardware, but that isn't the actual issue behind it (it's owned by nVidia afterall), even if proprietary "standards" are rubbish and doomed to fail in this industry. The problem is that it takes an unnecessary amount of power to run physics calculations that aren't even realistic, that and they actually force PhysX to run on only one CPU core to give the illusion that an nVidia GPU is much more powerful than a CPU than it is (which with a quadcore is limiting the potential of CPU PhysX quite a lot). Then the fact that it's not realistic physics either, Mafia II for example, never mind the fact that the shards of glass explode outwardly at the point of contact. As well as exploding outwardly, the window shouldn't even be exploding the way it does, bullets often just go right through the window leaving bullet shaped holes in their place, with a bit of shattering and cracking around the bullet hole. Throw a brick or stone through a window, it doesn't explode, there's often just a hole slightly larger than the object that went through it left in its place.

I am sure you're probably 100% right, the only games I usually play on a computer is Mahjong Titans and Solitaire. But my husband who like many others have been using ATI since the 80's feel that some of the drivers at the moment feel rushed. It's great that ATI release drivers every month, it shows their support to their consumers. However, some people are saying that because Nvidia doesn't do this, they have more time to spend on their drivers making sure they are more stable.

My issue with people having issues with ATi drivers is that they often believe nVidia are free from such issues. Now I don't believe that nVidia or ATi have major issues driver wise, but I am aware that there can and will be problems that aren't user error, it happens. But what you often see is people quoting ATi driver issues, then completely blanking nVidia driver issues when presented with them. These same people also claim nVidia never ever have any problems ever. I don't quite understand this, because often they're in an nVidia thread whining about how they wish *insert problem here* was fixed, because the latest drivers did nothing for them.

It's an extremely bizarre situation. I often get labelled an ATi fanboy for my views, which I can understand to a certain degree, but the reality is that I'm not biased *towards* ATi, I'm biased *against* nVidia, if there were more companies than nVidia and ATi, and nVidia were still the same as they are now, I'd still be biased against them, because I don't like the way they operate, and an increasing amount of people are beginning to feel this way about them. I never slate nVidia hardware, or the drivers, where as the nVidia fanboys are constantly making completely made up claims of how "ATi never works", I often defend ATi only because of the fact that I'm a long time ATi user and don't understand how people find it so hard to just use a graphics card. I update my drivers every month, I don't have any issues that aren't PEBKAC related and generally get on well with the hardware that I use. But I can't stand people making claims that are simply untrue, even if it makes me look *biased* to ATi, which I'm not (as I often say, does it make me a Nestle fanboy if I dislike Kellog's?) But, I believe 90% of *driver* problems people have really is down to PEBKAC, and when you add PEBKAC to the reluctance of people to admit PEBKAC, you get issues arising that are make believe. These people are far more likely to claim crappy drivers than to even begin to think that they problem might be their own cause.

I've waffled on quite a bit here, but it's getting really tiresome seeing people perpetuate the same nonsense time and time again, use links to "back up" their "opinions" and then ignore everything that doesn't fit in with the perception of the situation they want to hold. As I've said, I dislike nVidia based solely on the actions they've taken as a company to their customers and prospective customers. Considering Microsoft have been fined by the EU Comission for acts less questionable than nVidia's says it all to, I think they simply aren't interested in nVidia because they're not as big as microsoft, so the fines would have to be a lot less.
 
As for PhysX, yeah, it only runs on nVidia hardware, but that isn't the actual issue behind it (it's owned by nVidia afterall), even if proprietary "standards" are rubbish and doomed to fail in this industry. The problem is that it takes an unnecessary amount of power to run physics calculations that aren't even realistic, that and they actually force PhysX to run on only one CPU core to give the illusion that an nVidia GPU is much more powerful than a CPU than it is (which with a quadcore is limiting the potential of CPU PhysX quite a lot).

Anyone whos actually done any physics programming will tell you that the API itself has no significant performance issues and is not intentionally crippled on the CPU compared to any other software physics API. You have to realise also that accelerating RBs, etc. isn't where the API is aimed at, but at accelerating soft body effects, fluid dynamics, etc. where the GPU is significantly more capable.

Now there are some issues with developers releasing products with runtimes compiled without proper multi-threaded physics enabled on the CPU side... whether thats an over-sight by the developer, laziness or an intentional attempt to make GPU performance look more meaningful is open to speculation.

Then the fact that it's not realistic physics either, Mafia II for example, never mind the fact that the shards of glass explode outwardly at the point of contact. As well as exploding outwardly, the window shouldn't even be exploding the way it does, bullets often just go right through the window leaving bullet shaped holes in their place, with a bit of shattering and cracking around the bullet hole. Throw a brick or stone through a window, it doesn't explode, there's often just a hole slightly larger than the object that went through it left in its place.

Thats the 3rd party designer/developer at fault rather than a problem with the PhysX API itself (that some of this is developed in collaboration with nVidia is a little alarming - but its still not a fault of the API itself). I wish people would educate themselves a little about what they are slinging mud at before they do so.
 
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Anyone whos actually done any physics programming will tell you that the API itself has no significant performance issues and is not intentionally crippled on the CPU compared to any other software physics API. You have to realise also that accelerating RBs, etc. isn't where the API is aimed at, but at accelerating soft body effects, fluid dynamics, etc. where the GPU is significantly more capable.

I'm not disputing whether it can be good in theory or not, the fact is that when put in to practise, it's often rubbish. The technical reasons for why it's rubbish don't really matter, the end result is what matters most.

Now there are some issues with developers releasing products with runtimes compiled without proper multi-threaded physics enabled on the CPU side... whether thats an over-sight by the developer, laziness or an intentional attempt to make GPU performance look more meaningful is open to speculation.
It is open to speculation, however, I think it's more likely purposefully done, especially considering single core performance is often quoted as the "baseline" to say the nVidia GPU is often "X times more powerful".



Thats the 3rd party designer/developer at fault rather than a problem with the PhysX API itself (that some of this is developed in collaboration with nVidia is a little alarming - but its still not a fault of the API itself). I wish people would educate themselves a little about what they are slinging mud at before they do so.
It's not about me not educating my self on the matter, we've had this discussion before, and you know full well that my opinion on PhysX is that it doesn't matter how good the API is in theory, if it's used badly, then it's rubbish. Do you think companies would get away with saying that to share holders? "Well, technically, it's not rubbish, because this is what it's capable of". It doesn't matter that it in theory can do if, as you said, it's being implemented often with nVidia's supervision, in a truly awful way. Personally, I don't care how good it *could* be if it's used *properly* if no one seems able to use it properly.

I could have the best paint and paint brushes in the world on a technical level, but it doesn't matter if I can't use them properly.
 
Not really... thats like writing off a good car because you let some 3rd rate driver test it.

No, it's like writing off a technically good car because no one seems to be able to drive it properly. Or, writing off a technically good car engine, because the manufacturers keeps putting it with crappy parts, wheels that don't work, for example. It'll never matter how good this "engine" is without the means to move forward.

Comparing it to a car is a bad example anyway. Driving a car is the end user experience, the same way that seeing PhysX and interacting with it in a game is the end user experience. We're talking about what goes in to something to make the end user experience as good as possible, and with PhysX, it's not being done properly.
 
Hi guys, thanks for all of your replies. :)

The graphics card is supposedly in transit so I should be getting it today fingers crossed, so I can sneakily check to see if it fits all right etc..


It would be really really close on that PSU.

RAM wise depends on his software and habits i.e. if he likes to open a ton of things and leave them open while working on stuff it would help a lot, if hes tidy and only works with the stuff he immediate needs then 4gig would probably be enough.

He uses software like Avid and Autodesk Maya, so there is a lot of rendering to be done. I don't know much about RAM really, would there be much of a difference when installing files, transferring them, gaming etc.? Or would the computer not use most of the RAM until you use the heavier software?




Didt read the entire thread but just a heads up as i have 2 UD5's in front of me as we speak. If you use the last slot pcie on the motherboard a long card like a 5870/5970 will cover the pwr/sw/reset which will mean the gfx will not seat in the slot as the wires & plastic caps push the butt of the card out :(


So does this mean then that we wouldn't be able to put it into the 8x slot and would have to go for the tight squeeze of the 16x one?

I've managed to take a better picture of the case (which I shamefully should have done in the first place), it seems like it would fit in there without a problem, but with the other power cables and the fact that we will be using the new 1200w psu ones when that eventually arrives. I wouldn't know. But having a read when I bought this new Corsair AX1200 it is that the cables are detachable, so that may be able to create more space in the case for the cards and air flow etc?

imag0213t.jpg


Sorry about the size of the picture I didn't know it would be that big! :eek:

Asking millions of questions is what these forums are for - don't feel bad. At least you are polite and literate! :p

About the PSU question... it will be very close. I'm sure you could boot into windows, and probably run a few games, but at full power draw you would likely be approaching 750W. If it's a corsair TX or HX PSU, then it can probably manage a little over 750W in reality, but you always run the risk of it cutting out on you. It probably won't damage the PSU, but then you will be left wondering whether the fault is with the PSU or with the new graphics card. Unless you're really itching to test it out, I would just wait and give him both the PSU and graphics card together.

As for the question regarding the game return... I have no idea I'm afraid. I know that shops are very reluctant to accept returns of any game that has a CD key, since most games are effectively tied to their key, and a game with a used key is worthless to the retailer. But, I don't know what the law actually is on these things. A quick call to consumer direct (08454 04 05 06) would probably clear it up very quickly. They are a government institution, and I have always found them to be helpful and specific about anything relating to consumer rights. If a retailer continues to cause you problems after you follow their advice, they will follow up for you via trading standards. Businesses can ignore you, but they can't ignore trading standards ;)


By the way, the distance selling regulations came into effect in 2000, so your memory of your 15-yr old business studies A-level is not to be blamed!

Thanks for that Duff-Man :) Having a look when I took the picture it is a TX model. I would have liked whilst he is now out to see if just works (no gaming or anything! :p ), but if it may cause problems I guess I will just quickly check to see if it fits okay & then take it back out and wait till the PSU arrives hopefully sometime this week.

Glad to hear that at least some of my business studies A-level is intact! My teacher would still be somewhat proud! :D


Thanks for the info about ATI/Nvidia & PhysX, I think the only real thing that he's annoyed about ATI at the moment is that he hasn't been able to install the one file version of their drivers since the May one. They just keep installing till about 80% and wont install any more, even after coming back to it much later, it is still trying to install that section. The one with two separate files(?) seems to work fine for him. Also the last three model of cards he's had with ATI became faulty, even after they sent him a new one. He has never once had a major problem when he has had Nvidia cards, so at the moment I think the gold star in his eyes still goes to them. :D

I'm sorry I seem to have started a PhysX war here! :D I don't know myself what to say in the mater, but if sure in time it will be better. When you think how far computing in general has come in the last decade. I agree kylew that a bullet wouldn't "shatter" a windscreen because it's laminated glass, but it probably would on the side windows because I don't they are for safety purposes (so you can get out in an emergency).
 
I'm sure you'd be okay to lob it in and test it out with a game or two. I would avoid metro2033 though, as that is likely to put the GPUs under close to full load, so might draw more power than others.

Don't worry about starting fanboy wars, it's almost impossible not to in this subforum. It's like a minefield...
 
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Ah fantastic thanks Duff-Man! I wouldn't know what game of his to play, as Mahjong is more my forte, but what I really wanted to see is if it would work or not in the menu etc. :) I know he has Call of Duty 4(?) on there would that be okay to try?

Also, after what BigBruiserAl said, so we wouldn't be able to put the card in the "last" (8x?) slot if we had to because it would::

"cover the pwr/sw/reset which will mean the gfx will not seat in the slot as the wires & plastic caps push the butt of the card out"
 
2x 5970 perform like a dog...

much worse then trifire or simple crossfire.

I would suggest sending the new 5970 back to the shop under DSR and buying a 5870 or 5850 for trifire or wait till ned 6970 and give him the best card
 
It would be really really close on that PSU.

RAM wise depends on his software and habits i.e. if he likes to open a ton of things and leave them open while working on stuff it would help a lot, if hes tidy and only works with the stuff he immediate needs then 4gig would probably be enough.

nah that psu is great, my 950w one handeld dual 5970 without a sweat
 
Have you heard of user error?.

Lol never ceases to amaze how many "sarcastic" comments (or what seems like anyway) are made.

User error? Whats that?

Like others have said, I hope it all goes well for you Laura and your fella's a happy chappie, he sure is lucky one thats for sure :D
 
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