The pope. Popeing about.

Robbie G said:
That 'their very faith offers that extraordinary evidence' does not determine the context of the word 'extraordinary'.
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In which case you should probably use more exact phrasing as used in the legal arena to ensure there's no misunderstanding.

I find this pretty funny however how both sides can quite happily say you're evidence isn't good enough. There should be some standard as to what constitutes evidence for these sort of discussions. :p
 
Personally, if I'm going to believe in something, I need a sensible tangible reason to do so. Clearly that is not the case for religious people.

The answer to the question 'I believe in science, but what created science in the first place?'...I don't know. But at least I say I don't know, rather than guessing entirely.

I just CANNOT COMPREHEND that any intelligent, sane human could possibly say that they believe in any kind of god as referenced in the bible.
 
Robbie G said:
Personally, if I'm going to believe in something, I need a sensible tangible reason to do so. Clearly that is not the case for religious people.
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True. Obviously for those religious they believe in something that isn't tangible. Tangible evidence therefore, irrespective whether sensible has no meaning.

I just CANNOT COMPREHEND that any intelligent, sane human could possibly say that they believe in any kind of god as referenced in the bible.
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I can think of many reasons. They mostly relate to the intangible, that life exists beyond death, that people have free will, that emotions such as love and hate are deeper than just electrical impulses and the interaction of particles.

Religion is best left to philosophy not science.
 
Robbie G said:
Sorry you missed it...I was trying to find out what your definition of 'extraordinary evidence' was.

If you mean amazing, I agree. It is truly amazing that so many people with zero reason to believe in something so outrageously ludicrous do so, just because of their upbringing and the greatest work of fiction there ever was.

If you mean marvellous, I agree. It is a marvellous reflection of the diversity of the human race that people can be so...malleable.

If you mean outstanding, and if you class loads of people being a bit simple as outstanding evidence, then you don't know the human race very well.
.
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It's not about how I define 'extraordinary, but how each relevant group does.

Incidentally, you will only accept 'science' to prove any of the claims in the bible, well do you accept that the parting of the waters as told in Genesis could be true then, and if this 'extraordinary' claim can be proven by science, then many of the others may well be also, given at least some credence to the veracity of the Bible.

http://www.science20.com/news_artic..._it_have_happened_wind_setdown_model_says_yes.

The entire scientific paper is here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0012481


Interesting considering the thread topic.;)
 
Castiel said:
It's not about how I define 'extraordinary, but how each relevant group does.

Incidentally, you will only accept 'science' to prove any of the claims in the bible, well do you accept that the parting of the waters as told in Genesis could be true then, and if this 'extraordinary' claim can be proven by science, then many of the others may well be also, given at least some credence to the veracity of the Bible.

http://www.science20.com/news_artic..._it_have_happened_wind_setdown_model_says_yes.

The entire scientific paper is here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0012481


Interesting considering the thread topic.;)
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If anything, that offers another non-supernatural explanation to a supposed supernatural event. I fail to see how this gives credence to the bible.

Pudney@work said:
free will
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Sorry this jumped out at me - God's will or free will? There can be only one!
 
Robbie G said:
Sorry you missed it...I was trying to find out what your definition of 'extraordinary evidence' was.

If you mean amazing, I agree. It is truly amazing that so many people with zero reason to believe in something so outrageously ludicrous do so, just because of their upbringing and the greatest work of fiction there ever was.

If you mean marvellous, I agree. It is a marvellous reflection of the diversity of the human race that people can be so...malleable.

If you mean outstanding, and if you class loads of people being a bit simple as outstanding evidence, then you don't know the human race very well.

.
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Spot on! but it will fall on deaf ears I'm afraid, religion has become so ingrained in daily life for centuries that it's hard for them to stop & think.
You have heard the phrase 'from the cradle to the grave' ?
it was coined in 1948 referring to the new national health system being set up & not religion but that's the way the church wants to keep it.

Kids from an ever younger age are taught about sex,aids, homosexuality & religion are they not , they are told that homosexuality is not wrong but not that believing in god may be wrong because he may not exist -the complete opposite in fact. When I was at school we were repeatedly told all religions other than Christianity were heathen

My kids have grown up atheists but I didn't embarrass them at school by having them excluded from the nativity play or assembly & RE like the Jehova's witness crowd did because my wife & I did absolutely nothing to coerce them into our beliefs unlike many of you on this forum whose parents indoctrinated you while you were still in nappies by having you Christened , taking you to church/Sunday school etc.etc.
 
Hellsmk2 said:
Sorry this jumped out at me - God's will or free will? There can be only one!
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What rubbish, there can be both.
Gods will and God if he chooses can give free will, all though it comes with the clauses that god then can't interfere as it would remove free will.
 
izzy eckerslike said:
Well, if that's what we now call Greek Mythology how come the bible isn't classed as Christian mythology as it's similarly based on ancient texts ??
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It is? I have certainly used that phrase with the JWs we occassionally get to the door. It just happens to be a mythology that lots of people think is true, has some truth in it or even is fictional but still a worthy message (the incredibly strange atheistic christians!).

I think the problem here is that the atheists arguing so hard against Christianity on this board don't actually know what they are arguing against. They seem to have an idea of what it means to be Christian that very few Christians actually are. They also seem to have little idea of what the bible is. (calling it a book for example).

Don't get me wrong, I think there are many vaild arguments that can be used against the abrahamic god, but they need to be somewhat more considered than "Bible! Lol!" to hold any weight.
 
RDM said:
It is?
I think the problem here is that the atheists arguing so hard against Christianity on this board don't actually know what they are arguing against. They seem to have an idea of what it means to be Christian that very few Christians actually are. They also seem to have little idea of what the bible is. (calling it a book for example).

.
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your pointlessly splitting hairs again,o.k. so the bible is a book of books -so what? even a preacher will call the bible 'the good book' so why did you feel the need to point that out as if it makes the slightest difference to the discussion on this thread

The atheists on this thread know exactly what they are arguing against thank you very much :p
 
No one will ever prove that there is or is not a God or a higher power.

So what's all the fuss about?
 
izzy eckerslike said:
your pointlessly splitting hairs again,o.k. so the bible is a book of books -so what? even a preacher will call the bible 'the good book' so why did you feel the need to point that out as if it makes the slightest difference to the discussion on this thread
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Because a collection of books cannot be blanketed with exactly the same criticism as a single book. You need to vary it from book to book dependant on what it is you are arguing against. Genesis for example is taken to be mostly allegorical, a collection of creation myths and tales rather than to be taken as literal truth. Whereas the Gospels are meant to be truthful observations of Jesus' life. To properly criticise it you need to be able to know the difference between the various books and when criticism is warranted.

izzy eckerslike said:
The atheists on this thread know exactly what they are arguing against thank you very much :p
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You certainly don't seem to. You seem to be arguing against a vision of Christianity that next to no Christian actually follows.
 
deuse said:
No one will ever prove that there is or is not a God or a higher power.

So what's all the fuss about?
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Because Atheists are experiencing the same learning curve that Christians have had 2000 years to follow: acceptance.

Proof of God is not going to happen, we just need to accept each others beliefs whether its in God or not. Keeping a bearing on where we came from Christian heritage is also important imho as it helps us learn from the past and not get overrun by other cultures.
 
Hellsmk2 said:
If anything, that offers another non-supernatural explanation to a supposed supernatural event. I fail to see how this gives credence to the bible.
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Therein lies your problem. If you cannot see how that gives some credence to an allegorical story then it is pointless debating with you.

You cannot even seem to accept that something is only Supernatural because it is unexplained, and when it is explained it is no longer supernatural. Atheists here and elsewhere point to Moses and the parting if the water and say impossible, well Science doesn't agree.
 
Hitler did not denounce Catholicism eh? How about the amount of German Officers who where locked up for refusing to denounce their faith? How about the show of paganism shown by Hitler and Himmler, trying to capture the spirit of a Germanic era that simply did not exist. Solstice parades, harvest parades and the like, not to mention the image that Himmler had in mind for the SS heirarchy, King Arthur and his Knights.

Dawkins speaks as much nonsense as the Mormons.
 
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eddiemcgarrigle said:
Hitler did not denounce Catholicism eh? How about the amount of German Officers who where locked up for refusing to denounce their faith? How about the show of paganism shown by Hitler and Himmler, trying to capture the spirit of a Germanic era that simply did not exist. Solstice parades, harvest parades and the like, not to mention the image that Himmler had in mind for the SS heirarchy.

Dawkins speaks as much nonsense as the Mormons.
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Exactly. He also neglets to point out that in 1937 the Catholic Church was the first organisation, governmental or otherwise to denounce Nazism and the then Pope issued an encyclical stating categorically that Nazism was incompatible with the Catholic Faith. This was read from every pulpit in Germany, unusually it was done in the German Language Md not Latin so the message was understood.
 
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