Martial arts for self-defence for rookies - the experts need to be more frank I think.

Martial arts training is about changing your response through practice. Normally a punch comes in without training you'd back away without thinking. After a lot of training in martial arts, you'd step towards the punch without thinking. It's about repetition, practice, technique and ultimately allowing you to naturally make the right choice in a fight.

Martial arts class is the closest you'll come to a fight without actually fighting.
 
Hmm yep it has gone a little off topic. These kinds of threads will always descend into 'my dad is bigger than your dad' type comments.

The original question was basically, 'Is what I learn in my martial arts class going to be effective in the street?'

The answer, at least from my perspective is 'It depends how you train'. All you really need is a good straight right to defend yourself if you have an understanding of pre-fight, and pressure test it. Any art can be effective if you train with realistic self defence in mind. There are only so many ways you can move four limbs.
 
hurfdurf said:
I train, I'm also a massive MMA nerd/super fan. My lifestyle doesn't really cater to being an athlete so I train more for the fun of it, self defence and mainly so I can understand it more and relate to the fighters when I watch it on TV or talk to them.

I think when my life calms down I would love to try my hand at competing, but at the moment it would be a waste of time and I would get my ass kicked against all but the scrubbiest of scrubs without the confidence of knowing my training had been my top priority.



Thats like saying Stephenie Meyer takes her ques from Shakespear because they both write in English and use a pen. CroCop has never had an Aikido, Kung Fu or Capoeira lesson in his life, its such a laughable form of martial art Anderson Silva bought in Stephan Seagul for his last fight, as a practical joke!

The reality is a lot of styles have been severely shown up by MMA coming to fruition and all these mythical fighting styles being shown to not work in real life or physical combat competition, and now the Bullshido forums actively seek these people with their fantastical claims and challenge them to fights, always proving that they were talking rubbish. A Karate or TaeKwondo practitioner may throw kicks, and some of those kicks may have similarities to a Kickboxers, but they are completely different forms of combat, and only the Kickboxers have ever made it any where in MMA whereas the majority of pretty yet completely ineffective styles have been all but abandoned in open competition because of their worthlessness.

I am sorry if you did one of those martial arts and you are trying to cling on to the false confidence it has given you. Even talk of breaking boards and baseball bats is nothing but trickery and most 12 year old girls could do it given 3 weeks conditioning, its not impressive to anyone who knows the tricks to it and understands its worthlessness as anything but a showcase of aesthetics or parlour trick aimed at non practitioners.
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Wow, such aggression/provocation.. why?

MMA, as said above, is Mixed Martial Arts. It takes things learned from all forms of martial arts. I'm not dismissing MMA, but you are dismissing traditional forms of martial arts. Perhaps you are the one trying to justify/validate your own opinion by trying to 'attack' my opinion?

To claim that MMA doesn't take anything from Kung Fu, Aikido, etc. is simply laughable.
 
Ive been doing Kushindo (mix of aikido, jujitsu and karate) for the last 17 years. From it ive attained great balance, coordination, control, power and confidence mainly. Its great in a social aspect too. I am under no presumptions that 90% of what is taught is pretty much useless on the street (not really useless but overly complicated and risky to perform making it redundant in that situation - what good is a spinning 3 stikes to the chest followed by a kneeling throw when a swift kick to the innder knee will do the same job?).

Im just going to pretty much reitterate some peoples points but try and give my perspective on it. The main point of self defence we try and teach is to avoid the confrontation altogether, failing that its about minimising the threat as much as possible. We punch full speed and from varying angles to try and improve reactions (you can only practice so much in a controlled environment - next step will be to follow them home and jump them from a tree! xD joke). Practice makes perfect - when starting a technique, always do it slowly, repeat until you know it by heart and then start speeding it up - ive always believe that in a real situation (ive been in a couple) that your stance, punch etc will only be about 70% (roughly) as good as when you prepare for it so trying to speed through a technique you are still learning will just create more mistakes and make the learning take longer, it also shows a lack of patience.

If you are thinking primarily for self defence then take most techniques with a pinch of salt, all you will mainly be looking at are the basic strikes, locks, throws etc, things that take 1 to 2 moves whilst staying on your feet. Anything else just use as practice for your balance and technique (depending on what you are wanting - I personally love the complicated stuff, its great for displays, takes a good amount of skill and coordination and is fun to pull off but I would never think it was a viable defence in the real world unless the guy was blind drunk or in a wheel chair).

On top of this, dont be afraid to look at different matial arts to further improve. You arent cheating on the first MA by doing this xD. There are many out there that are not worth looking at (we will make you black belt in 2 years - give us money - this seems to be a recurring theme). The worst ive seen was an advert recruiting martial arts instructors, it said it requires no previous experience and they would give you all the training you needed in a 6 week course.... You will be able to take something out of every major style so dont be afraid to look into differenct ones and maybe pick a couple that give a good balance for you.

(p.s. I may add to this because im still sleepy and cant remember what ive written)
 
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dmpoole said:
But how many times have you dealt with a proper knife wielding attack where it isn't a preset controlled swing at you in a Dojo?
I'm not saying your training is useless but just not real world.
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I've had someone try to attack me with broken bottle, which is basically the same thing.

Even if all I've had is someone come at me in a dojo with a knife (which, for the record I haven't - I didn't progress far enough/wasn't old enough), it is better than being completely unprepared at all. This is all I am pointing out.
 
There are quite a few yoshinkan aikido schools where tanto-randori (multiple attackers with a knife) is still performed for dan grading. The tanto are live blades and DO cut if you fail to execute your technique.
I've seen some footage of tanto-randori in gradings and its pretty brutal, and not pretty, there is no linear method of attack that the defender can anticipate. The attackers come at you like berserkers in some cases. It's down to instinct and a deeper understanding of the philosphy of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen etc. (please ignore this last sentence if it sounds like total bull, lol).
 
For the street? Boxing.

The biggest obstacle in any confrontation is controlling your emotional state.This can only happen if you become accustomed to confrontation with the risk of getting hurt.
 
It's all conditioning. Knowing technique will not allow you to employ it with the natural 'instinct' like manner you would need.

It's like car control. You lose control for the first time and it feels like it's instant. In reality and with experience that instant turns into a second or two where you can react.
 
panthro said:
Im not going to start any arguments with you but just wanted to point out to other posters to not take what you say as some kind of guide or gospel, because that would be putting them in danger HTH.
BTW - regarding one of your posts earlier about MMA artists training in karate etc, Bas Rutten is a black belt in Kyokushin and TKD.
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Trap sprung bro. Yes Bas Rutten did Kyokushin and TKD but he regrets doing both before he became more educated and learnt how useless they were! Exactly the same as UFC commentator Joe Rogan, did TKD but regrets it heavily now he knows more about actual fighting and started BJJ!

eatcustard said:
What?????
Where is the danger?
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You are teaching your kids they can fight when they clearly can't. The instructor is a joke and handing out a brown belt to a 9 year old for doing some pretty kata dancing. It is liable to have your kid think he can defend him self only to encounter real violence and actual physical attack and be destroyed for it because all he is prepared for is the silly nonsense demonstrations and slow motion scenarios played out in his Dojo. If a 9 year old and 15 year old kid are at brown belt, is that not telling you something as to how much said brown belt from the instructor actually means?! Who have your children fought to demonstrate their level of skill? (I am guessing neither have had an actual fight/match?)

Banzai_Joe said:
My long time friend and aikido collegue has a dan degree in Dang Lang Kung Fu, and i've not met anyone who can touch him in a sparring match. Even my other 2nd shotokan/2nd aikido collegue who used him for extra sparring for his 3rd dan grading.
His fluidity and hand/foot speed is staggering and he could hit me about 6 times before i'd got 1-2 shots in and i thought my hand speed was good.
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Simple question that disputes Kung Fu and its effectiveness Vs other striking styles. Where are these amazing techniques in the K1 GP? (answer: No where because they are not very good compared to kick boxing/Muay Thai)

Dj_Jestar said:
To claim that MMA doesn't take anything from Kung Fu, Aikido, etc. is simply laughable.
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Why are the people who started out there abandoning these styles for other more effective proven styles then, and bad mouthing them afterwards once they have experienced Martial Arts that actually work or work much much more effectively? (see earlier in this post, Bas Rutten and Joe Rogan, just off the top of my head)

Why are there no MMA or K1 fighters coming out of Kung Fu dojo's or Aikido work shops? (because they are terrible fighting systems!)

ExRayTed said:
For the street? Boxing.

The biggest obstacle in any confrontation is controlling your emotional state.This can only happen if you become accustomed to confrontation with the risk of getting hurt.
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Exactly, you are better off doing Ballet than silly Kata's and having your opponents come at you in slow motion or at half force so no one gets hurt.

- look at 2:24 in this video, this girl is being taught that her kicks are so devastating that she can use them to defend herself, when in reality those guys are throwing themselves on the floor without even really being touched! This is 90% of martial arts. Do something real that involves real fighting or you are getting scammed.
 
I really think youve got a bad attitude fella! The op asked what is best for self defense, not what makes the ultimate mma fighter!

are you saying that kung fu and other martial artists couldnt defend themselves in a street-fight situation? just because they arent in mma doesnt make them useless. also giving children Brown belts is not telling them that they are invincible. it means they have fulfilled the criteria of their grading panel and syllabus. It is a very westernised thing that we have colours and grading to see progression, how would you like to keep people intersted in their martial art? as if most are not working towards something then they get disillusioned. as a by the by, how do youngsters in mma clubs know they are progressing?



rotters
 
hurfdurf said:
This is 90% of martial arts. Do something real that involves real fighting or you are getting scammed.
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That's if being able to fight (in an MMA style) is the sole aim of your training, if it's not then you may not be getting scammed at all. I know of a fair few people who do martial arts for the exercise/relaxation/achievement/social aspects - they're not necessarily doing it because they can now kick seven shades of ***** out of anyone else. It's also worth remembering that the aim of MMA fighting is to win via aggression (i.e. you must go forwards) and there are usually rules about what can and cannot be done but no backup - in a street fight you don't automatically win by getting the arm bar or a rear naked choke or whatever, sometimes simply deflecting the attack until the aggressor is worn out/the police come/until you can make your escape is a win.

I guess my point is that projecting what you see as the aim of something onto other people who may have different goals seems a little narrow minded.

rotters said:
as a by the by, how do youngsters in mma clubs know they are progressing?



rotters
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When they stop getting beaten up? I've got no idea.
 
Self defence, well what a subject

I can not remember what discipline you are doing ?

As me I have walked the rice paper and learn the way of the grasshopper !
Wing Chun Kung Fu, is bl**dy deadly simple, effective martial art I have ever done.
I have practised, Lau Gar Kung Fu, Kick Boxing, Judo, Kali !

As mentioned in the thread after 8 weeks you are in position to handle yourself in a street fight. And street fights are completely different to a staged situation in the class, and even competition fighting is the some times not enough. As you have rules in the ring, in a street fight there are no rules or etiquette to adhere too.

The best thing for you to do is practise the moves and do some light shadow sparring. With a goal of getting to do semi contact sparring. Plenty of physical contact practice is required. As street fighting is really about seeing a situation about to unfold, the body language of a individual / s, your surroundings etc.
Instinctively being able to second guess what some one is going to do comes from years of sparring and competition bouts.
The best policy is to stay out of fights in the street.
If you do get enough in one, then kick the ***** off the guy, then run like hell as his mates or the Police will not to too far away !

Also remember the whole reasonable force policy as well !
 
hurfdurf, how much MA experience training do you have? Or are you the armchair type? You did mention you were some kind of MMA superfan.
I've certainly already said that MMA does offer the best all-round chance of victory in a fight, but MMA came about purely to see which aspects of ALL the other MA's worked best.
For you to poobag MA's that YOU do not think offer combat effectiveness is very disrespectful at best and ludicrously innacurate at worst.
As civilisation becomes...well allegedly more civilised MA's that are centuries old, ie ju-jutsu etc become diluted to reflect a more civilised and modern era.
Tae Kwon Do in the UK barely resembles the original teachings from Korea back in the 1950's. Okinawan karate studied most places outside of Japan is the same, diluted with derivatives of.
But there had to be a reason they have survived so long.
I've already given an example of how aikido was effective for me and there will be myriad of people who are more adept at it than i am.
Lets also note that some locks that aikido (and other MA's) teach are blindingly effective and extremely painful...yet they are banned from use in the MMA.
Why would a useless MA have banned techniques in a contest where ALL studies are pitted against each other? Care to comment on that?
As rotters said the kyudansha method of grading is a western implementation to encourage students by denoting their grade with a coloured belt. Simple as that. And black belt denotes that a certain level of commitment, knowledge and experience/expertise has been attained.
And as spw and others have said, MA isn't just about violence, in fact its usually a teaching to avoid it.
Here's a quick lesson for the armchair warriors, the word 'do' (as in Judo, aikido) means 'path' and these arts aim to teach a path to self improvement, inner enlightenment etc. Not to be 'double 'ard and beat people up.
Tai Chi has its roots in effective combat (although not to your way of thinking), yet the majority of practitioners use it for therapeutic benefit.

Open your eyes man. There's a world of knowledge you are truly missing out on....especially if you are connected with the martial arts.
 
Which locks can't you use in MMA from Aikido?

You can use wrist locks, but due to MMA gloves it is difficult and mostly ineffective.
 
Which locks can't you use in MMA from Aikido?

You can use wrist locks, but due to MMA gloves and the hand/wrist wraps it is difficult and mostly ineffective.
 
Dkore-DeX said:
Which locks can't you use in MMA from Aikido?

You can use wrist locks, but due to MMA gloves it is difficult and mostly ineffective.
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Hi mate, correct me if i'm wrong but i thought only arms bars and long lever locks were allowed. Didn't think small joint locks were allowed. Gloves wouldn't stop an elbow to wrist lock (nikkyo) being applied which is unbelievably painful and debilitating, especially if your opponent is on the floor

That said, there are many locks in arts like aikido, and unless you know them i can't really describe them, sorry.

How is your training going?
 
Small joint manipulation only refers to fingers and toes, so wrist locks are allowed. I can't say I have ever seen anyone pull one off, that's not to say it hasn't happened. I have seen Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza pull one off in a BJJ match as soon as his opponent grabbed his Gi, was awesome.

Had a break since my marriage, and I am looking at changing where I train. It has become a bit stale at my old gym, and I feel like the big fish in a small pond. The new place I'm looking at I'll be the small fish, so should continue to improve. Thanks for asking :)

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...y-DbBw&usg=AFQjCNGClQr0ESG8X0U2E1FjassMMwKygw

That link should show the video, I'm at work so can't actually see it.
 
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Thanks for the link Dkore
Interestingly there was also THIS on there too.
At 5.10 Seagal show locks from groundwork. It's this type of thing that i thought wasn't allowed in MMA.
 
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