Crazy religious woman?

Angilion said:
No, you are not a catholic. A catholic is a person who has faith in a specfic god (the Abrahamic god) and in a specific religion for worshipping that god (catholicism). You very clearly have neither faith, so you cannot possibly be a catholic.
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Well you are wrong there. He can indeed identify with being a catholic because of his upbringing.

It's called Cultural Catholicism, where you identify with the Catholic traditions without actually practising the faith.
 
Nix said:
3. The UK is not a Christian country. Statistics can be skewed any way people desire and the last census has repeatedly been commented on for not being entirely accurate. Many people for example, identified themselves with being Christian simply due to being born in this country or unaware of other definitions. Indeed, there was very much a stigma attached to atheism, etc. during the last census which has since vanished thanks in part to technological improvements and open cultural dialog (books such as The God Delusion, et al. have promoted this). The reality is that the UK is moving to becoming a totally secular country and most of the population are not religious. Being deemed a Christian country is again, simply one of cultural legacy and not a contemporary accuracy. By stepping away from old shackles, it does not mean we are discriminating against them, nor does it mean the 'Mussies' are winning.
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It is entirely accurate to state this is a Christian country, to begin with we have not separated church from state as yet, Christianity is our state religion as enshrined in law. There is only one country in Europe that is truely secular and that is France, and they have similar problems.

Also the claimed stigma that atheism had that skewed results has disappeared since the last ONS survey this year? strange. That survey said that 71% of people identified with the Christian faith, Richard Dawkins, himself the doyen of aggressive atheism in this country describes himself as culturally Christian.

Culturally we are also Christian, whether the majority practice the religion or not is immaterial to the definition of cultural Christianity.

while I agree with the rest of your post, telling him to state we are not a Christian country is not correct.
 
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Angilion said:
I don't care if people advocate changing the numbering of the years to something areligious because they don't want a religious calendar.

I don't care if people advocate keeping the current religious numbering of the years because so many people are so used to it.

I do care a bit about people advocating using a religious calendar and having everyone pretend it isn't a religious calendar. It's a dishonest position.
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Fair enough. But changing the date so it has no religious connotations would lead to confusion and keeping AD/BC is offensive/insensitive to some people (apparently). Simply changing to CE/BCE but keeping the date the same sounds like reasonable compromise to me.
 
Castiel said:
It is entirely accurate to state this is a Christian country, to begin with we have not separated church from state as yet, Christianity is our state religion as enshrined in law.

Culturally we are also Christian, whether the majority practice the religion or not is immaterial to the definition of cultural Christianity.

while I agree with the rest of your post, telling him to state we are not a Christian country is not correct.
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I disagree on that point, so I'm not going to go around in circles with you. The last census on this point was incorrect. If I were to go out and do a completely random quantification of individuals with the proper definitions and compiled the data, I would strongly assume that the outcome would suggest we are no longer Christian in the practicing sense. I'm not talking about us not being Christian culturally - our institutions, etc. are largely founded upon them and it would be counter-factual to assume they would if we weren't Christian. Our cultural legacy is something we cannot escape, but it is something we are able to move away from and this is my point: I believe the UK is moving away from being Christian; primarily in the practicing sense but also in the cultural.

The UK may be a Christian state (something which I again disagree with as I feel we should be entirely secular), but as a nation I do not feel that this is still the case. The girl in question is using a justification that is moot.
 
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I say we change the date. The only relevent years to anyone these days is related to BBY and ABY. So, WWII began in 39 BBY and the War on Terror began in 24 ABY. Much easier to remember those dates. :D


Seriously if religious nutters are so concerned, couldn't they just substitute the word "Common" with "Christ's" and be done with it? After all, it is just an acronym and can really mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.

Besides, what is the point of the English "Before Christ" and the Latin "Anno Domini". Really, why can't they both be one language or another? Seems the outdated Latin is -- outdated.
 
Nix said:
I disagree on that point, so I'm not going to go around in circles with you. The last census on this point was incorrect. If I were to go out and do a completely random quantification of individuals with the proper definitions and compiled the data, I would strongly assume that the outcome would suggest we are no longer Christian in the practicing sense. I'm not talking about us not being Christian culturally - our institutions, etc. are largely founded upon them and it would be counter-factual to assume they would if we weren't Christian. Our cultural legacy is something we cannot escape, but it is something we are able to move away from and this is my point: I believe the UK is moving away from being Christian; primarily in the practicing sense but also in the cultural.

The UK may be a Christian state (something which I again disagree with as I feel we should be entirely secular), but as a nation I do not feel that this is still the case. The girl in question is using a justification that is moot.
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Well that is as may be, but all the evidence actually says your wrong, and to dismiss cultural christanity because it doesn't suit your argument prove the tenuous nature of said argument.

Simply put we are culturally Christian in fact and also legally Christian in statehood in fact, how you feel about that is immaterial to those two facts.

We are factually a Christian State, both legally and Culturally. They are both indisputable facts. The latest ONS survey (which fits your stated requirements) states that the vast majority of people agree that we are indeed a Christian Country and identify with that on a personal level, whether they are practising Christians is immaterial.

So to say we are not a christian country is factually incorrect.
 
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Castiel said:
Well that is as may be, but all the evidence actually says your wrong, and to dismiss cultural christanity because it doesn't suit your argument prove the tenuous nature of said argument.

Simply put we are culturally Christian in fact and also legally Christian in statehood in fact, how you feel about that is immaterial to those two facts.

We are factually a Christian State, both legally and Culturally. They are both indisputable facts. The latest ONS survey states that the vast majority of people agree that we are indeed a Christian Country and identify with that on a personal level, whether they are practising Christians is immaterial.

So to say we are not a christian country is factually incorrect.
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You're missing the point.

The statistics you're referring to have been lambasted time and time again for not being accurate. That point is moot. From my own personal experiences of living in this country for the past 24 years, I know I'm correct on my assumption.

I'm not dismissing the cultural legacy because it doesn't suit my argument as I would never do something as tenuous. What I am saying - and I don't wish to be condescending here but I don't wish for there to be anything lost in communication - is that culturally, we are moving away from our Christian heritage. The girl refers to us being a Christian nation-state. We are not. We are a Christian state and an apathetic non-theist [atheist] nation. I am not discounting our past whatsoever or trying to undermine it - what I am saying is that we are moving away from it, and I'm afraid that's the genuine reality.

She feels discriminated against because of shift in the cultural zeitgeist.
 
Nix said:
You're missing the point.

The statistics you're referring to have been lambasted time and time again for not being accurate. That point is moot. From my own personal experiences of living in this country for the past 24 years, I know I'm correct on my assumption.

I'm not dismissing the cultural legacy because it doesn't suit my argument - I would never do something as tenuous. What I am saying - and I don't wish to be condescending here but I don't wish for there to be anything lost in communication - is that culturally, we are moving away from are Christian heritage. The girl refers to us being a Christian nation-state. We are not. We are a Christian state and an apathetic non-theist [atheist] nation. I am not discounting our past whatsoever or trying to undermine it - what I am saying is that we are moving away from it, and I'm afraid that's the genuine reality.
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We are factually a Christian Nation-State, there is no separation of church and state. My experience of 40 years of living in this country trumps your mere 24 years, so that daft statement is moot, but that's inexperience for you:p

You are referring to the 2001 census, I am not I am referring to the 2010 ONS survey of half a million people. Check their Website, I can't link at the moment as I'm on a phone.

We are neither Secular or majority atheist as the majority identify with the Christian ethos, and we are not moving away from our culture to any significant degree, in fact given the recent upsurge in right wing populism quite the opposite.

However you attempt to colour your argument, the fact remains that the vast majority of people are culturally Christian and the country is legally and culturally Christian at this time, something even Richard Dawkins accepts.

I actually agree with the post you made on all points regarding the woman, it is only the assertion that we are not a Christian Country that is incorrect.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=15381
 
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Castiel said:
Well that is as may be, but all the evidence actually says your wrong, and to dismiss cultural christanity because it doesn't suit your argument prove the tenuous nature of said argument.

Simply put we are culturally Christian in fact and also legally Christian in statehood in fact, how you feel about that is immaterial to those two facts.

We are factually a Christian State, both legally and Culturally. They are both indisputable facts. The latest ONS survey (which fits your stated requirements) states that the vast majority of people agree that we are indeed a Christian Country and identify with that on a personal level, whether they are practising Christians is immaterial.

So to say we are not a christian country is factually incorrect.
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I dispute those "facts" as do many others.
 
Stretch said:
I dispute those "facts".
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Fine, they remain facts nonetheless.

In short, until we legally separate church from state then to say we are not a Christian country is just individual opinion, not an actual fact.

If you asked are we a religious country, my answer would be No, we are not, but that are not the same regardless of what some people think.
 
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Stretch said:
I dispute those "facts" as do many others.
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One fact I can tell you is that the biggest employer of people in this country (the NHS) has a religious bit on the job application forms and nearly all are filled in.
It isn't hard to work out that the most ticks go in the Church Of England, Catholic and Protestant boxes so even if they are not religious they still feel part of a group.
 
dmpoole said:
One fact I can tell you is that the biggest employer of people in this country (the NHS) has a religious bit on the job application forms and nearly all are filled in.
It isn't hard to work out that the most ticks go in the Church Of England, Catholic and Protestant boxes so even if they are not religious they still feel part of a group.
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This is my point, people identify with Christianity, that doesn't necessarily mean they are religious. Both legally (The reformation onward) and culturally we are indeed a Christian Country, we may not be predominantly religious (as in practising), but we are not secular in the same vein as France for example either, few countries actually are.

The opposite argument could be had regarding Turkey, most people would say it is an Islamic country, but in reality it is secular.
 
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Right. I'm going to change my statements on this, to be Castiel-Compliant. We may be a Christian country in a semantic sense, but we are not a country of practising Christians.
 
Castiel said:
Fine, they remain facts nonetheless.
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Surely the only "fact" is that the majority of people ticked a particular box on a survey. It doesn't actually tell you anything more than that. Unless of course you also believe we do in fact have so many thousand Jedi in the UK.
 
surely if you wanted to replace AD and BC because of their religious connotations you'd also have to use a completely different dating system in terms of number of years?


tell her to stick it tbh :p
 
RDM said:
Surely the only "fact" is that the majority of people ticked a particular box on a survey. It doesn't actually tell you anything more than that. Unless of course you also believe we do in fact have so many thousand Jedi in the UK.
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I'm not specifically referring to the survey outside of it's anecdotal implication and the 2010 IHS survey I was referring to did not ask the question in that way but was interview based (450,000 people), but the legal status of the Anglican church, specifically the Church of England.
 
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