**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Indie said:
Im always up for some games, need all the practise i can get! what race are you?

Luxotican.425



Yeah, Hydra/Roach is much stronger now due to the range buff. Puts T1-T2 combo's into a bracket that can actually be on par with the other two races.

Best thing i could do really is watch you play some.. throw some replays up if you like.

check this one out, quite a decent game. ZvP

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/92978-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war

Gives you some idea of how powerful roach/hdyra/ling is... also how important flanking is.



Mutalisks. They shouldn't really be used as a mass attack group albeit extreamly powerfull, because the lack in ground units leaves Zerg vulnerable early game.. Just attack them earlier and they'll have no chance. IIRC its about 8-9 minutes in.. just before their spire pops out :)

I use mutalisks for early game harassment and contain.. which then allows me to drone spam and either pump more units, tech up, or expand. I only ever use between 6-8 mutas, anymore in my honest opinion is a waste.

The counter for them is Thor's & Marines as Terran works the best. mix in a few hellion for his zerglings.
Protoss should think about going stalkers with sentry guardian shield -OR- Pheonix.
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Stalker / sentry is not a mass muta counter. It doesn't work. You need approximately 50% his muta count in Phoenix really. And you have to micro real well. Thing is you have to know he's going mass muta so you can have enough phoenixes up in time. Also if you can hurt his gas, that will cripple his muta production.
 
kar said:
Stalker / sentry is not a mass muta counter. It doesn't work. You need approximately 50% his muta count in Phoenix really. And you have to micro real well. Thing is you have to know he's going mass muta so you can have enough phoenixes up in time. Also if you can hurt his gas, that will cripple his muta production.
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Your stalker/sentry always holds off my muta harassment pretty well, or has done in the past. Infact any Stalker/Sentry combo is enough to keep muta harassment running away.

but then again..I never MASS muta though, as i don't see the point. (as i said above)

Also, Archon/Zealot is quite effective against muta/ling, guy did it too me the other day and i was a little gobsmacked, forgot how awesome archons are! ^^

Still think the most effective muta counter is to attack the zerg before they can produce any :)
 
Indie said:
Mutalisks. They shouldn't really be used as a mass attack group albeit extreamly powerfull, because the lack in ground units leaves Zerg vulnerable early game.. Just attack them earlier and they'll have no chance. IIRC its about 8-9 minutes in.. just before their spire pops out :)

I use mutalisks for early game harassment and contain.. which then allows me to drone spam and either pump more units, tech up, or expand. I only ever use between 6-8 mutas, anymore in my honest opinion is a waste.

The counter for them is Thor's & Marines as Terran works the best. mix in a few hellion for his zerglings.
Protoss should think about going stalkers with sentry guardian shield -OR- Pheonix.
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I knew it was timing, bit annoyed actually because I had four siege tanks, took them in to their base and ripped him a part but it was a little too late because some more of those bloody multilisks hatched! The marines and marauders in support weren't enough.

Definitely timing, he hadn't expanded past his main, should have been mine to take because my main was well defended by turrets and bunkers, he only just managed to take out my 2nd base but by then had wiped out my forces and just started to overpower with masses of air so I surrendered.
 
Indie said:
Your stalker/sentry always holds off my muta harassment pretty well, or has done in the past. Infact any Stalker/Sentry combo is enough to keep muta harassment running away.

but then again..I never MASS muta though, as i don't see the point. (as i said above)

Also, Archon/Zealot is quite effective against muta/ling, guy did it too me the other day and i was a little gobsmacked, forgot how awesome archons are! ^^

Still think the most effective muta counter is to attack the zerg before they can produce any :)
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Yeah against muta 'harass' sentry/stalker is fine. Problem is mid/late game when you start getting big wads of mutas stalkers can't keep up. Mobility is part of it, but mostly it's down to a) stalkers don't scale with upgrades v. well, and b) when mutas reach a critical mass + upgrades they can kill infinity stalkers straight up with no micro.

In small numbers it's fine. It's when they start wheeling 20 odd around with +1 it gets scary. Now archons even things up a lot. But you suffer mobility issues particularly since you need to be on 2/3 bases to produce archons in any sort of number.

Really the only effective counter then that lets you force a fight, or the mutas to run away, are phoenixes. And you can't afford to pump stalkers/archons AND pheonixes off of 2 harassed bases. Basically you need to assess if they are going heavy muta (i.e. more than 12) and for put down double stargate asap.

Still think the most effective muta counter is to attack the zerg before they can produce any
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Which is MUCH harder since the patch :) I don't think mutas are imba tbh, not 1v1. But they are pretty tough to counter. And in 2v2/3v3/4v4 situations they _are_ OP.
 
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kar said:
Really the only effective counter then that lets you force a fight, or the mutas to run away, are phoenixes. And you can't afford to pump stalkers/archons AND pheonixes off of 2 harassed bases. Basically you need to assess if they are going heavy muta (i.e. more than 12) and for put down double stargate asap.

Which is MUCH harder since the patch :) I don't think mutas are imba tbh, not 1v1. But they are pretty tough to counter. And in 2v2/3v3/4v4 situations they _are_ OP.
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Assessing the amount of mutas is indeed the hardest part without a doubt.. you simply don't know untill they actually spawn, or unless you scourge their bases for other tech buildings.. which, can often lead to nothing anyway.

Yeah it is loads harder since the patch, which, im not gonna deny.. i love ^^ roach raaaaange! :D.. now roaches just need concussive acid upgrade for 50/50 and we'll be fine ;) heehe.. ohh lord can you imagine! <3
 
Cheers lux, ill uplaod a couple of losses that im obviously going to get today/tonight :). I love have no units and setting 2/3 of my hatcheries all targetted onto the enemy and you just see about 40 slings fly out at them :D.

I played a guy yesterday aswell who 4 gated me, when I held off the first 2/3 waves the next one had a collosi which buggered me, is hydra a decent counter to them aswell or is that when i need muta's?
 
nex20 said:
Cheers lux, ill uplaod a couple of losses that im obviously going to get today/tonight :). I love have no units and setting 2/3 of my hatcheries all targetted onto the enemy and you just see about 40 slings fly out at them :D.

I played a guy yesterday aswell who 4 gated me, when I held off the first 2/3 waves the next one had a collosi which buggered me, is hydra a decent counter to them aswell or is that when i need muta's?
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Hydras are crushed by colossi so bad.

Basically it goes roach/ling -> hydra to combat gateway units. Once you get enough hydras there's _nothing_ protoss can do. They *have* to have either templars or colossi. Preferably both. The zerg counter is corruptor roach infester midgame (with some hydras to deal with his gateway meatshield) and late-game mass ultra just straight up annihilates stalker/sentry/colossus.

Once you get a largish number of ultras, the protoss has to be real fast to tech change to immortal archon zealot. Otherwise he's dead.

And once the toss does that the zerg has to tech change again, because that mix wipes the floor with ultra/ling.

It's actually the most broodwaresqe matchup in that both sides have to read and react to their opponent. Now the early game isn't such a cakewalk for Protoss it should get even better.
 
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nex20 said:
Cheers lux, ill uplaod a couple of losses that im obviously going to get today/tonight :). I love have no units and setting 2/3 of my hatcheries all targetted onto the enemy and you just see about 40 slings fly out at them :D.

I played a guy yesterday aswell who 4 gated me, when I held off the first 2/3 waves the next one had a collosi which buggered me, is hydra a decent counter to them aswell or is that when i need muta's?
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don't go pure hydra vs colosi, they get eaten.. eaten with big tastey fire beams! :p

what i normally do vs colosi, is just abuse their lack of mobility. As soon as you see they are pumping out colosi, its a good idea to lay down a spire if you havnt got one already. This will provide you with an extra attack option/tech switch.

Other than that, if they leave them unguarded AT ALL, just get a few hits off here n there with mutas... a good way to do this is attack a lone building or mineral line, draw the stalkers away from the colosi so their vulnerable. Mutalisk Disco i like to call it!

The general unit composition I use vs gateway units + Colosi is Ling/Roach/Hydra/Corruptor

You'll NEED to flank. going from the front and back renders the colosi microless, so you're able to get hits off onto it, and your corruptors ability proves very useful here :) +30% damage is crucial, and you always have them doing constant damage too, leaving you to micro your ground units better.

Lings are just cannon fodder, they'll get nommed on my the colosi, but they are good at distracting their fire, and providing a tiny gap between the Zealots and the Roaches, which are effectivly your damage soakers.

Roaches deal a bit of damage, and soak really well, especially Colosi fire. Hydras are the main DPS force that stand behind your roaches.

key points.
- Harass when you can.
- FLANK! always always always!
- Use corruption on colosi
- Focus on army composition.
- Add Infestors if you really want to make them immobile. or fancy stealing a Colosi, but its more micro intensive than its worth imho.
- They will have more Zealots due to colosi gas cost. So add more roaches.
- Upgrades on carapace and ranged attack (carapace first)

EDIT: your the swarm now.. so expand like them ^^
once you have 3-4 bases you should have ultras or broodlords out and be upgrading melee attack.
 
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ever have one of those days!!

Think i've lost every single game i've played today!!!! just awful - some days i win 90% of games - today i've lost 5 in a row of singles games!!
 
Cheers guys, ill remember that. This zvp matchup is so confusing to me, mainly because I have never played either race so I don't really know counters or anything.

Am I right in thinking lings get wtfpwn'ed by zealots but are good vs stalker and roaches are good v zealots and average v stalkers?
 
nex20 said:
Cheers guys, ill remember that. This zvp matchup is so confusing to me, mainly because I have never played either race so I don't really know counters or anything.

Am I right in thinking lings get wtfpwn'ed by zealots but are good vs stalker and roaches are good v zealots and average v stalkers?
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4 lings to every zealot is the ratio you need to remember. And you should get +1 carapace asap. As +1 attack zealots munch through zerglings faster than a kid through a packet of monster munch.
 
kar said:
4 lings to every zealot is the ratio you need to remember. And you should get +1 carapace asap. As +1 attack zealots munch through zerglings faster than a kid through a packet of monster munch.
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Cool beans, if they are Roast Beef flavour im not to worried :D
 
booyaka said:
ever have one of those days!!

Think i've lost every single game i've played today!!!! just awful - some days i win 90% of games - today i've lost 5 in a row of singles games!!
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I played all day yesterday about 20+ games (1v1), I won 5. It's all a learning curve!

if you don't mind guys, what I have done better here? My first game/loss of the night...

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93142-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis - I know my lava injects kinda strayed mid-game and I also shouldn't of gone broodlords AND ultralisks. ;/
 
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nex20 said:
I played all day yesterday about 20+ games (1v1), I won 5. It's all a learning curve!

if you don't mind guys, what I have done better here? My first game/loss of the night...

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93142-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis - I know my lava injects kinda strayed mid-game and I also shouldn't of gone broodlords AND ultralisks. ;/
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Made a few notes watching the game. More of a protoss player tbh, but hopefully some of this will be useful:

Lol, a protoss named zeratul :p

There were lots of zerglings at the start given the threat, seemed as though toss pulled ahead in the worker count for a short time. Worth trying to scout more, as you seemed to know very little about what was going on inside the protoss base later on.

I'd throw the spire down as soon as i see colossi (if not before depending on the build)

Even though you did miss larva injections, excess energy can be used on creep tumours/Healing units so it can at least be put to some use.

Start upgrading earlier, you could get away with an earlier +1 attack or carapace.

If you're giong heavy ling at hive tech, the adrenal glands are a handy upgrade to remember. Gives lings an extra kick when you run around and flank or run into a mineral line.

When the big battle game, the only unit you had which would have any effect on colossi was a single corruptor. Nothing wrong with Brood Lords, but you'll need a few corruptors to take down those colossi.


Also dont be afraid of roaches now. Since the buff they'll fare far better in pretty much any battle against toss. :) Lings and hydras = food for colossi.

Had a game recently where i went colossus against a zerg. Ended up having my entire army surrounded and my colossi neural parasited. Kudos to that zergie on their micro, but infestors may be worth considering.

Later on, there are still lots of colossi, so I'd suggest more corruptors and less hydras

Oh and dont stop at 2,2 upgrades. Go all the way to level 3, toss certainly will :)
 
I just went for the GOMTV season 1+2 pass for the GSL mostly for the vods. There are tonnes of them there and I can see myself watching it all at some point or other if I don't watch them live. :p
 
kar said:
4 lings to every zealot is the ratio you need to remember. And you should get +1 carapace asap. As +1 attack zealots munch through zerglings faster than a kid through a packet of monster munch.
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I love monster munch :) ... infact i love monster munch so much my band wrote a song about them <3

nex20 said:
I played all day yesterday about 20+ games (1v1), I won 5. It's all a learning curve!

if you don't mind guys, what I have done better here? My first game/loss of the night...

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93142-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis - I know my lava injects kinda strayed mid-game and I also shouldn't of gone broodlords AND ultralisks. ;/
Click to expand...

I can't check the game out yet as im at work, but i'll take a look at it tonight :)

Yup always best to go down one or the other tech tree.. at least that is untill you physically can't spend enough money.. but in which case, he should be dead anyway ^^

Alex74 said:
Made a few notes watching the game. More of a protoss player tbh, but hopefully some of this will be useful:

Lol, a protoss named zeratul :p

There were lots of zerglings at the start given the threat, seemed as though toss pulled ahead in the worker count for a short time. Worth trying to scout more, as you seemed to know very little about what was going on inside the protoss base later on.

I'd throw the spire down as soon as i see colossi (if not before depending on the build)

Even though you did miss larva injections, excess energy can be used on creep tumours/Healing units so it can at least be put to some use.

Start upgrading earlier, you could get away with an earlier +1 attack or carapace.

If you're giong heavy ling at hive tech, the adrenal glands are a handy upgrade to remember. Gives lings an extra kick when you run around and flank or run into a mineral line.

When the big battle game, the only unit you had which would have any effect on colossi was a single corruptor. Nothing wrong with Brood Lords, but you'll need a few corruptors to take down those colossi.


Also dont be afraid of roaches now. Since the buff they'll fare far better in pretty much any battle against toss. :) Lings and hydras = food for colossi.

Had a game recently where i went colossus against a zerg. Ended up having my entire army surrounded and my colossi neural parasited. Kudos to that zergie on their micro, but infestors may be worth considering.

Later on, there are still lots of colossi, so I'd suggest more corruptors and less hydras

Oh and dont stop at 2,2 upgrades. Go all the way to level 3, toss certainly will :)
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going by these notes, their pretty accurate in terms of ZvP :)

If its the same Zeratul i know, hes quite a good UK player from what i understand.

my -general- rule of thumb regarding tech is that if their 4gating, i'll open with a roach warren and a bunch of lings, and get on +1 carapace.
If they do any other sort of opening, i go for spire, and use a lot of zerglings early on to keep the protoss pinned to prevent their attack... or if they attack, surrounddd!

Always get Zergling Speed. vs Protoss i always start researching it before i actually spawn any zerglings, its cruicial for map control

Spread creep, makes your roaches much more effective, allows you to micro them should protoss start pushing you back. Cover the map in the stuff if you have too...
 
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