I went ahead with the Insignia VXR

[DRZ]

Don't agree with what I've said? I'd be interested to hear why you feel an engine that isn't maintained as well, run from cold several times a day and smokes up and down the motorway at a constant rpm is going to be in any better condition than one being used hard all day every day for a few weeks.

OK. I'll bite.

"Isn't maintained as well" isn't something we can't quantify easily here as we aren't in posession of the full facts. We know the brakes are changed but we don't know if oil/filters are changed at all or with what frequency or grade of oil.

We do know that the cars are subjected to 6ish hours of being driven as hard as possible, so we can safely assume WOT during all acceleration as well as deceleration just as hard as can be managed. Zero mechanical sympathy is shown to the cars, they are thrashed regardless.

Across an average lap, we could safely assume that the average engine state is somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 RPM at wide open throttle, depending on driver skill. So thats 6 hours of sitting at likely double the RPM of the motorway car whilst outputting maximum torque. Being stock cars, they have no upgraded cooling parts or extras to help them cope with such output so the oil will be running out of spec, the coolant system strained to its limits etc etc.

Contrast that to the motorway car. Started in the morning and driven for the same 6 hour period. During that time both cars have gone through one cold start cycle each and run for the same duration. The engine will be up to temperature within minutes with a short burst of WOT to get up to motorway speeds (compared with the VXR car that has been thrashed when cold around a track!). It will then sit there at a constant speed in top gear at 2-2500RPM. Oil will be in spec, coolant system unstrained, no sustained exposure to high torque outputs.

Even internally to the cylinders, a WOT burn event is very different thermally to one at part throttle so the stress on the faces of the cylinders/pistons/valves etc are all reduced. Critically, the exhaust output temperatures will be lower, reducing wear on the turbocharger (which in turn reduces wear on the oil). On the motorway, the car is unlikely to be on boost whereas on track the car will near constantly be on full boost!

We're still talking about just the engine here, we've not even started on the drivetrain or the rest of the car... should I go on?

 

[Wicksta]

What was said "racing car"?

I'm talking about a saloon car with a standard engine as part of the regulations. Try again Mike.

 

[DM]

All i can say is you must love a row Mike, how can you hand on heart believe what you are saying mate?

 

[MikeHiow]

I'm talking about a saloon car with a standard engine as part of the regulations. Try again Mike.

Please answer the question Also, if you are suggesting it has a standard engine, how can you categorically state there is increased engine wear over 50 laps? Do you rebuild every race/season?

DRZ, you see, you are working on the opposite assumption to me, that they are not cooled sufficiently - this just goes to show this can be swung either way by making assumptions on the unknowns. Which is why I was sure to clarify my assumptions early on.

I see your point about oil, but in the interests of keeping things trouble free for the sake of 20 minutes and a dip into the parts/service bin, what do you think the chances of them changing the oil each day are? In fact, didn't MrLOL already say they did this?

Mapped correctly (relevant to a turbocharged engine), there isn't any particular reason why the engine should suffer at WOT any more than one driven at 70MPH in 6th gear, loading the engine heavily as the driver decides to overtake in gear utilising peak torque these VXRs make so low down.

I have a magazine article on this very subject somewhere, I really need to find it. Seeing Wicksta's experience, and that you (DRZ) do actually have a decent understanding of what you are talking about, I'm certain you'd find it interesting.

 

[Fr0dders]

they have to change the oil regularly has they had the **** thrashed out of them and no doubt used a litre or thereabouts during the day.

 

[MOOGLEYS]

The cars after the track days are shot to pieces. I have some photos and videos somewhere of the day when i went. The cars are abused to in an inch of their lives and in some cases beyond that. There is no possible way everyday motorway driving will cause even a fraction of the wear these cars suffer on the track. For the 30 mins i was in the astra i red lined it in every gear bouncing of the limiter leaving it in lower gears and high rev,s....You are encouraged to push the car and yourself to the limits...

 

[Wicksta]

Please answer the question Also, if you are suggesting it has a standard engine, how can you categorically state there is increased engine wear over 50 laps? Do you rebuild every season?

At least every season, in fact usually more. The front runners used to rebuild nearly every race. I had two failures in 3 years of racing, once where a valve cap shattered at Spa.

What question am I supposed to be answering? I've stated that from my experience the life of a standard engine is greatly reduced when you're constantly pushing it to the limit. You moan at people like Fox using Google to get answers well why isn't my experience good enough for you? Maybe you could take a leaf from Fox's book and actually do some research because you show yourself to be an utter fool at least two or three times a week lately. Do you not think about that ever or do you really think it's everyone else who is wrong each time?

 

[DRZ]

DRZ, you see, you are working on the opposite assumption to me, that they are not cooled sufficiently - this just goes to show this can be swung either way by making assumptions on the unknowns. Which is why I was sure to clarify my assumptions early on.

I see your point about oil, but in the interests of keeping things trouble free for the sake of 20 minutes and a dip into the parts/service bin, what do you think the chances of them changing the oil each day are? In fact, didn't MrLOL already say they did this?

Mapped correctly (relevant to a turbocharged engine), there isn't any particular reason why the engine should suffer any more than one driven at 70MPH in 6th gear, loading the engine heavily as the driver decides to overtake in gear utilising peak torque these VXRs make so low down.

There is first hand experience in this thread of the cooling being inadequate. Most engines roll out the factory unprepared for track abuse (which is why there is a market for race parts, after all...)

I would hope the oil is changed daily, if it is that will be beneficial but not enough to bring wear levels down to the same as would be experienced on a motorway. Look at VW and BMW's long life service intervals - On cars that sit on the motorway, service intervals can be 15,000 miles between oil changes! The fact that Vauxhall might change the oil daily goes to further highlight the point, doesn't it?

Mapped correctly, a car sitting off boost is under far less stress than one that is on full boost at wide open throttle. How can you argue the opposite?

 

[Howard]

There is first hand experience in this thread of the cooling being inadequate. Most engines roll out the factory unprepared for track abuse (which is why there is a market for race parts, after all...)

I would hope the oil is changed daily, if it is that will be beneficial but not enough to bring wear levels down to the same as would be experienced on a motorway. Look at VW and BMW's long life service intervals - On cars that sit on the motorway, service intervals can be 15,000 miles between oil changes! The fact that Vauxhall might change the oil daily goes to further highlight the point, doesn't it?

Mapped correctly, a car sitting off boost is under far less stress than one that is on full boost at wide open throttle. How can you argue the opposite?

Indeed. I can hoon my MX5 on the road all day and the temperature won't be an issue (or at least not much, if so) but if I took it on track as it stands it'd run far too hot. Track driving is a total different kettle of fish to any enthusiastic fast-road driving you can do that is even anywhere within the realms of safety/sensibility on the road

 

[Participant]

This is getting beyond a joke now, every second thread on here is descending into petty arguments. Motors used to be my favourite section on this forum but its getting tiresome filtering all the crap to get to the relevant posts.

/Rant.

MikeHiow's posts are far more entertaining than reading relevant factual info.

I'm fairly sure he's successfully trolled motors, as nobody can believe that a track day is kinder on an engine than a cruise down the motorway.

 

[JRS]

How can you argue the opposite?

I do wonder sometimes if Mike is employing a variation of Steve Jobs' Reality Distortion Field™....

 

[MikeHiow]

There is first hand experience in this thread of the cooling being inadequate. Most engines roll out the factory unprepared for track abuse (which is why there is a market for race parts, after all...)

If they are not cooled properly, my original statement becomes irrelevant anyway, as that was one of my "requisites", if you like.

I would hope the oil is changed daily, if it is that will be beneficial but not enough to bring wear levels down to the same as would be experienced on a motorway. Look at VW and BMW's long life service intervals - On cars that sit on the motorway, service intervals can be 15,000 miles between oil changes! The fact that Vauxhall might change the oil daily goes to further highlight the point, doesn't it?

It does a good job of highlighting my point, too.

Mapped correctly, a car sitting off boost is under far less stress than one that is on full boost at wide open throttle. How can you argue the opposite?

At the point where it is off boost, I concede. But this is more about the life a car like this would have on the motorway/normal use, when you factor in things like in gear overtakes - WOT (or near to) in 6th at low RPM is going to be a lot more stressful, as is running from cold several times a day, having the car turned off with the turbo still smoking hot, the lack of maintenance etc. all add up. Of course, all only relevant if the cars on track are cooled properly and have a proper supply of oil at all times.

What question am I supposed to be answering?

What you used to race.

 

[[TW]Fox]

We are talking year old 8k mile cars. Your average drivers 'lack of maintenance' doesn't even factor in a car this new.

Being utterly caned for days and days on hard track work however does.

 

[Wicksta]

What you used to race.

My mechanical experience relates to Mini Se7ens, Miglias and MGF Cup. I personally raced the Se7ens for 3 years as part of the GT and Formula 3 support package (Apart from Spa when we were supporting Belcar).

 

[DM]

Let me get this right then, you still maintain that properly cooled and oil changed, whacking a car round a track is better for, or no worse than motorway driving, is that right?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I love this forum. I know some don't but seriously this is way better than watching soaps and stuff.

 

[DM]

I love this forum. I know some don't but seriously this is way better than watching soaps and stuff.

Hes lost the plot with this one, how can anyone anywhere actually believe that to be true, its just complete ******.

 

[MikeHiow]

My mechanical experience relates to Mini Se7ens, Miglias and MGF Cup. I personally raced the Se7ens for 3 years as part of the GT and Formula 3 support package (Apart from Spa when we were supporting Belcar).

An A-Series is just a bit different to any modern engine we'd be discussing here, isn't it Especially when we're talking about one running 115-130bhp!

What are the control modifications, out of curiosity?

 

[Wicksta]

The MGF Cup cars ran a 1.8 K Series engine. I knew you'd pick on the A Series though.

You're never happy are you Mike, no matter what I'd have said you'd have picked holes in it to divert attention from your frankly laughable argument.

Can I ask what experience *YOU* have to make your point of view more valuable than mine and everyone elses here? You are quick to ridicule Fox for his Google knowledge but you constantly make an idiot of yourself.

 

[[TW]Fox]

So if his experience isn't good enough for you mike what's your experience of an engine being worse off on the motorway than abused around a track?

The engines were often shut off as soon as the car stopped in the pits.