UK-France Defence Treaties

Isn't this Anglo-Franco hatred spurred on by prancing people like Charles de Gaulle's ego during WW2 and the fact (?) that despite the Brits erecting a staure to him, the French haven't honoured Churchill in the same way?

I heard this a while back so have no idea about it real veracity.

The have to celebrate something from that era of history its not as if they helped win the war was it?

de Gaulle opposed Britian's entry into the EU fiercely, but soon backed down when the UK was in talks with the US over becoming a member state :)

Stelly
 
"Dr Andrew Gordon, the head of maritime history at the staff college, said it was "hogwash" to suggest that Germany failed to invade in 1940 "because of what was done by the phenomenally brave and skilled young men of Fighter Command".

"The Germans stayed away because while the Royal Navy existed they had not a hope in hell of capturing these islands. The Navy had ships in sufficient numbers to have overwhelmed any invasion fleet - destroyers' speed alone would have swamped the barges by their wash."

Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".

While admitting it was an "extremely sensitive subject", Dr Christina Goulter, the air warfare historian, supported the argument. "While it would be wrong to deny the contribution of Fighter Command, I agree largely that it was the Navy that held the Germans from invading," she said."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527068/Battle-of-Britain-was-won-at-sea.-Discuss.html

Thanks for that, knew I'd read that somewhere, just couldn't remember where.
 
I don't know why this started as a WW2 discussion, people keep missing key factors like, Hitler went completely bonkers, simple things like his generals not wanting to wake him up to ask his permission to move the panzer divisions in early enough to make a difference, which had they been in place, alone, could have put a halt to the invasion but most were dozens of miles away for no real reason except Hitler went mental.

Half the generals were called back to Germany IIRC for a meeting even though many said it was critical they stayed where they were, the French front lacked command and control basically. They fell for the scottish radio tricks and moved vast numbers of forces into Norway I believe to prevent a non existant invasion and they had vast numbers on the east front starting a campaign in Russia.

If they'd focussed their forces in France, our invasion was done for and USA/UK wouldn't have had the forces required for a LONG time to try again, if the panzers were in place, we'd have been screwed, if the Generals phoned Berlin, had HItler woken and he ordered getting ready earlier before our troops arrived on the beach, we'd have likely lost, etc, etc.

Then there was them focusing really on the wrong military idea's, V2's rather than various better planes, though had our invasion of France failed, V2's arguably, made better and continually launched into the UK, maybe might have been half useful for them.

Either way, people are forgetting little things like without air support, errm, boats need refuelling they couldn't go on forever. With air superiority they don't NEED to attack the boats, they attack the boats support infrastructure, unopposed, or at least without total dominance they would have blown the living crap out of every dock we had, and every boat that was in dock, it would have been a matter of time, as someone said, not if but when.

But this, again, is the reason WE won the war and not them, at the end of it, mass production. IF the USA hadn't turned most of their manufacturing power into making war materials, we lose, if they hadn't built so many planes, boats, jeeps, tanks, guns and munitions, we lose.

Germany by contrast got so strong and were so successful because, they did exactly the same in the first place, several months build up, well years, of mass production of war materials. They were an economy in trouble and instead spent big money on creating jobs in manufacturing, tanks, jeeps, guns, planes, u-boats, and roads.

AS for the ridiculous way England blames France, if France/UK's position was reversed, we'd have been completely over run and France would have been bailing us out, thats just life, there was really smeg all between Germany/France in terms of military might, and you had a country that had been in MASSIVE scale production of war materials for a couple years vs one that, frankly, hadn't.

It took an entire MASSIVE nation with massive manufacturing capability, and billions borrowed/spent in IOU's to secure the necessary equipment to fight back Germany.

If we were connected by land, Germany needed no time to stop, change strategy they would have roled us aswell. The air force was instrumental in making the channel a VERY difficult prospect.

Without that time and space and the ability to defend shipments of equipment from the states we'd have been over run VERY easily in our early war state, in terms of numbers of tanks, planes, trained personel, munitions, defences and frankly also the level of our technology.
 
The Royal Navy was pulled out of the English Channel while the battle of Britain was raging to minimise losses as without air cover any fleet there would have been decimated.

The Englsih channel was crawling with destroyers and patrol boats throughout WW2.

See the above link posted by Superficial.
 
Interesting and differs completely from a documentary I watched about 3 weeks or so ago.

Powerful as the Royal Navy was, it would have been a sitting duck in the Channel without adequate air cover.
 
Interesting and differs completely from a documentary I watched about 3 weeks or so ago.

Powerful as the Royal Navy was, it would have been a sitting duck in the Channel without adequate air cover.

As the above article states, the luftwaffe didn't have armour piercing bombs so any damage to something like a battleship with a large anti arcraft battery and damage control would be minimal.

How would the Luftwaffe hit small fast moving MTB's & Destroyers at night, with no guided munitions or night vision equipment?

A single destroyer or MTB getting amongst the Rhine Barges that would be used to carry troops would cause havoc. Imagine the amount of damage HMS Nelson would've caused when it brought 9 16" guns to bear.
 
My 2c

I would holehartedly support going to war with the French rather than the USA, if it came to it.

Would really like to see a better relationship delevop from UK&French relationships, we are both v.powerfull countries in our own ways and should lead to a very balanced co-operation in the future, compared to the US&UK relationship.
 
"The German Air Force successfully used large radio-guided Fritz-X bombs against battleships and cruisers since September 1943, but Japan had no such weapon, and therefore Admiral Onishi suggested that volunteer pilots will guide their bomb-carrying aircraft all the way to an explosive suicide collision with their American warship targets, acting as a living guidance system, literally becoming "smart bombs". "

= why the Japs needed Kamikaze Pilots.

http://www.2worldwar2.com/kamikaze-pilots.htm

the point being that the Germans did not possess the technology necessary to damage ships until many years after the the BOB. attacking ships from the air during WW2 was bloody hard.
 
As the above article states, the luftwaffe didn't have armour piercing bombs so any damage to something like a battleship with a large anti arcraft battery and damage control would be minimal.

But they did have aircraft that could launch torpedos.

How would the Luftwaffe hit small fast moving MTB's & Destroyers at night, with no guided munitions or night vision equipment?

A good point but didn't certain German aircraft have radar and night capability ? Messerschmit had a twin engine night fighter with radar capability ( the model escapes me ) although I'm not sure that would help in tracking naval vessels. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that ?

The Luftwaffe could surely take out a destroyer by aerial bombing and torpedos.

As for fast patrol boats, ths standard 20mm cannons of aircraft such as the Bf 109 would have no problems filling such a boat with holes from above albeit during the day as you rightly say.

A single destroyer or MTB getting amongst the Rhine Barges that would be used to carry troops would cause havoc. Imagine the amount of damage HMS Nelson would've caused when it brought 9 16" guns to bear.

Without a doubt but such barges would not sail without cover both naval and aerial.
 
A good point but didn't certain German aircraft have radar and night capability ? Messerschmit had a twin engine night fighter with radar capability ( the model escapes me ) although I'm not sure that would help in tracking naval vessels. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that ?

The Messerschmitt Bf110 was used as a night-fighter following its' rather poor performance in the battle of Britain. With forward firing fixed 20mm cannon in the nose, it didnt have the problems of 'converging' fire that the Spitfire/Hurricane had, so all you'd have to do is line up the Bf110 with the target.

It wasnt fitted with radar until around 1942 though, a bit late for Sealion. Prior to that it had operated as a night-fighter based on directions from ground based radar.

I think the Lufwaffe would have been able to control the channel long enough for landings to have been effected, yes the Ju87 Stuka isnt a battleship killer, but you can bet the Germans would have filled the channel so full of U-Boats that no Battleship would have got close!

Battleship escorts would have been under constant attack from Fliegercorps X, and while distracted they'd have faced wave attacks from U-Boats close to their bases, that could turn up, loose off 8 torpedos and disappear for a quick re-armament.
 
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