Religion - I can understand someone believing in god/jesus, but why do they believe in the bible?

[Uriel]

Just dipping back in briefly (still not read the entire thread) but thought I'd add the following:

I grew up in an evangelical / baptist Christian environment where people generally accepted that the bible was 'the word of God'. Strangely, although most people held the bible in high regard few people I knew seemed to know or care about the way it came to be. Questions like "why don't we use the Apocrypha" had church leaders I knew stumped. In the end I found it all enormously frustrating and I found that my faith in the bible had been undermined. That left my faith in general somewhat impotent so I decided to look in detail into the writing and compilation of the Bible. Honestly, I was expecting to find little to justify faith in it and believed that if I stuck with it I would be forced to abandon my Christan faith.

To my surprise, several years worth of looking at the issue restored my confidence in the bible. On the one hand, I began to look into details of the formation of Canon. On the other, I began to look into the books of the bible individually. Initially I started to be more and more convinced of the merits of individual books. Later I've come back to a more holistic faith in the entire Bible.

Treating the books individually turned out to result in rapid restoration of confidence. In terms of manustript evidence, the New Testament is fantastically reliable for such an old set of documents. I was fairly quickly convinced that the question was not so much "is the document's transmission reliable?" but "do you believe what is written?". As I found out details of genre, the involvement of eyewitnesses and the history of first century Palestine, I first found myself being intellectually convinced that firstly they were believable, which led to the more faith based position that I believed them again.

On the formation of canon, I fairly quickly found out that evangelical protestants in general seem to have a very sketchy idea of how it happened compared to most other Christians. Many other denominations have a frankly excellent understanding of it. The biggest pill to swallow here was that trusting the bible essentially meant trusting the early church. Again, it's a faith based position but I feel that it's now an informed one.

 

[e36Adz]

Well, as there is not too much in the Bible that would conform to your black and white ideology, I would say that your argument is therefore moot.

What religion do you ascribe too btw?

I disagree with you, there are many MANY things in the Bible which are black and white in the sense you can clearly see that Bibles stance on the subject.

I do not however conform to the methodology of taking a single quote regarding a topic and coming to a conclusion, you need to take everything the holy scripture says about a certain topic and THEN 'join the pearls together to form a necklace'.

I choose to be muslim, if I doubted anything in the Quran or disbelieved in it, I would not be muslim. I certainly do not pick and choose which parts I believe depending on how I am feeling that day.

 

[Castiel]

I disagree with you, there are many MANY things in the Bible which are black and white in the sense you can clearly see that Bibles stance on the subject.

I do not however conform to the methodology of taking a single quote regarding a topic and coming to a conclusion, you need to take everything the holy scripture says about a certain topic and THEN 'join the pearls together to form a necklace'.

I choose to be muslim, if I doubted anything in the Quran or disbelieved in it, I would not be muslim. I certainly do not pick and choose which parts I believe depending on how I am feeling that day.

Only in your opinion of course...

As a Muslim you will know that there are several denominations (including one who do not ascribe to the literal context of the Qu'ran) and schools of thought (interpretations) of the Qu'ran, how does that differ from various interpretations of the books within the Bible.

 

[e36Adz]

Only in your opinion of course...

As a Muslim you will know that there are several denominations (including one who do not ascribe to the literal context of the Qu'ran) and schools of thought (interpretations) of the Qu'ran, how does that differ from various interpretations of the books within the Bible.

It definately is my opinion but I mean, do you disagree that the Bible is 'clear cut' on certain issues? I am referring to the Bible to keep the thread on topic, but I'll give you one example from the Quran. I can show you verses which say women must dress modestly. Now that is definately open to interpretation, but it's only when you compile everything the Quran and Hadith say on womens dresscode that you get an idea of what 'modest' is, eg. that a women must cover her hair. If someone comes along and says well it says here I should dress modest, I feel this bikini is appropriate and I'll ignore everything else Islam says about dresscode, does that seem logical? It is not intelligent, it is not clever, it is someone deceiving themself and I don't see how anyone could see it any other way.

Many sects within Islam differ in interpretation but they do still go by religious scripture, most are very very similar and differ only in minor issues. The ones who blatently go against religious scripture eg. Ahmadi's are absolutely not regarded as muslims, by the rest of the muslim world.

Islam itself is fundamentally a belief, and it acknowledges that human beings are not perfect therefore everyone will sin, be it on different levels - some more then others. If someone commits a sin though, that does not take them out of the fold of Islam, however, if someone does not actually believe, then they have left Islam. So under no circumstance, with no amount of debating or arguing or interpretation could somebody say they do not believe in God but they are muslim, it is simply not possible.

 

[Uriel]

e36Adz, I think it's worth mentioning that Christians generally do not think that God (or an angel) dictated the bible (aside from a few bits here and there). Therefore when Christians refer to scripture they mean something very different to a Muslim referring to the Qu'ran. Christian expectations of scripture are generally entirely different from your own and that is why they generally do not apply the same principles when reading the Bible as you would with the Qur'an. The written word on the page and the exact language do not matter so much as the interaction with God that takes place when scripture is read (to some Christians at least).

You mentioned some discussions where a Muslim speaker went through bits of the Bible, pointing out how Christians haven't kept it. Does the name Shabir Ally (sorry if spelled incorrectly) mean anything to you?

 

[Vonhelmet]

Muslims believe the Quran was revealed directly to the prophet Muhammed pbuh by inspiration, through the angel Gabriel. The arabic text of the Quran, which to this day is identical in every arabic Quran (translations vary), are regarded as the literal words of God.

Which has nothing to do with Christianity, Hinduism, or any other religion. Even then, I'm sure there are Muslims that don't believe what you're saying. Next stop - no true Scotsman!

 

[sajtion]

i don't believe in bible or koran or any other holly book. each one is a copycat of the other more or less and it’s been manipulated over centuries to control the human mind. i do believe in divine power and spirituality on the basis that love is universal and every civilization in the cosmos is part of the one consciousness that binds us all together.


also anyone who thinks that life is pointless and think that all there is a pure biological existence is a fool in his ignorance. everyone is born with the purpose to learn something in life and advance they spirit. unfortunately some people will try many times until they get it right if you know what i mean

 

[Edward78]

hey read it and then follow it word for word

I love those who just follow parts they like, makes me mad!!

 

[RDM]

To the OP - I would say muslims follow the Bible more then christians tbh...

Though they sort of miss the entire point with regards to the New Testament...

This is the foundation of Islam, the belief in One God - yet many christians say God is 3 in 1, or a trinity.

Which shows your misunderstanding of the trilogy more than Christians deviating from the bible.

This is the manner in which muslims worship, they prostrate themselves and bow down before God.

However that is not the only way to worship god according the bible, so why cherry pick the ones that support your view?

The above verse speaks of Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Another form of prayer is fasting, something muslims do during the month of Ramadan.

It doesn't however say it is required.

Many people give to charity but in Islam is it compulsory for anyone who is earning to donate a small % every year to charity.

I would say that willing charity is better than enforced charity any day. Wouldn't you?

Muslims greet eachother by saying 'Asalaam-u-alaikum' which means 'peace be unto you'.

But the bible doesn't instruct you do to that, so why would you? Jesus also got nailed to a cross I don't see many muslims requesting that...

Muslims before making any intention should say 'insha-Allah' which means 'God willing'.

Again, it isn't an instruction to do so. Why the desire to make being muslim such a pious affair?

Muslim women are instructed to observe hijaab which requires the covering of the hair/head.

How did you go from "cover your head while praying" to "cover up all the time least you make us poor men lose all control"?

Muslims regard Gods law/commandments as the supreme law.

But skip "Thou shall not kill" on a regular basis and are not overly fussed about applying them to non muslims...

Islam means submission, and a muslim is 'one who submits' to God.

Again, so what? The bible says many things, Islam doesn't mean all them too.

and you can go on.

You certainly can, but mostly you seem to have a misunderstanding of what it means to be Christian if you think that just by following the words in the bible you are a better Christian than someone who actually believes in Christ as the son of God and the only way to salvation.

And this is coming from an agnostic who thinks it is all a bunch of rubbish.

 

[Deadbeat]

You find it abhorrent that a christian tries to follow the bible, or that a muslim tries to follow the quran etc? Really?

If they try to follow it to the letter, yes. It's the pinnacle of blind faith solely responsible for the vast majority of travesties committed in the name of religion. For every passage preaching peace & love there are five calling for vengeance & righteous retribution - were you truly to live by the letter of your book, you'd be out converting or slaughtering non-believers every waking moment. Allegorical or not, the level of violence against heathens and infidels demanded by the Bible, the Torah or the Qur'an surpasses reason, and that's not even mentioning the fanatical devotion called for - how on Earth one could possibly reconcile the great gift of free will with the absolute submission to God's will required by faith, I've never managed to understand.

As a point of personal experience, I'd say that without fail the most asinine, supercilious, insufferable religious people I've ever met, those most enamoured of their divine duty to convert their fellow man, who presume and judge and preach and cannot be reasoned with under any circumstances are those who consider themselves to adhere most strongly to their holy scriptures.

advance they spirit

Yo

 

[izzy eckerslike]

If some of you believe the bible to be gods word ( and I will point out that I have a family member who is a Christadelphian and believes exactly that word for word) then explain how you interpret that.
Does it mean you think the scribes were given guidance from god on what to write and if so how come there are so many very obvious errors in descriptions of how everything was supposedly created including man.

The known and proven age of the Earth and how humans and life in general evolved is refuted by Christadelphians and quite a number of other sects and probably quite a number of Christians in general who believe that Adam and Eve were indeed the first two people on Earth along with many other biblical stories that modern science shows cannot possibly be true

 

[Deadbeat]

If some of you believe the bible to be gods word ( and I will point out that I have a family member who is a Christadelphian and believes exactly that word for word) then explain how you interpret that.
Does it mean you think the scribes were given guidance from god on what to write and if so how come there are so many very obvious errors in descriptions of how everything was supposedly created including man.

The known and proven age of the Earth and how humans and life in general evolved is refuted by Christadelphians and quite a number of other sects and probably quite a number of Christians in general who believe that Adam and Eve were indeed the first two people on Earth along with many other biblical stories that modern science shows cannot possibly be true

That's actually been answered many, many times, not just in this thread. The main point is how much of the old testament is to be held as allegory rather than an historical recount.

 

[sajtion]

in general who believe that Adam and Eve were indeed the first two people on Earth along with many other biblical stories that modern science shows cannot possibly be true

adam and eve were first mentioned in the sumerian tekst and they were the oldest civilization so go figure where the bible and koran got their idea from and the sumerian people talked about them being genetically engineered by extra terrestrials. its a tough story to swallow but humans could be a branch of et at least in our dna

 

[RDM]

... and the sumerian people talked about them being genetically engineered by extra terrestrials. its a tough story to swallow but humans could be a branch of et at least in our dna

No, really they didn't. There is zero mention of genetic engineering in the little sumerian writings we have.

 

[Castiel]

It definately is my opinion but I mean, do you disagree that the Bible is 'clear cut' on certain issues? I am referring to the Bible to keep the thread on topic, but I'll give you one example from the Quran. I can show you verses which say women must dress modestly. Now that is definately open to interpretation, but it's only when you compile everything the Quran and Hadith say on womens dresscode that you get an idea of what 'modest' is, eg. that a women must cover her hair. If someone comes along and says well it says here I should dress modest, I feel this bikini is appropriate and I'll ignore everything else Islam says about dresscode, does that seem logical? It is not intelligent, it is not clever, it is someone deceiving themself and I don't see how anyone could see it any other way.

Only by your interpretation of the text. 'Modest' is an entirely subjective word. Hadith, by there very nature are open to interpretation, in fact different denominations have different Hadith and attribute different levels of authenticity, again interpreted differently within Islam, not just by the denomination but also the Imam and scholar.

The fact that you cannot see it any other way shows how limited your interpretation of your religion makes you, and not the innate heresy that you attribute to others.

Many sects within Islam differ in interpretation but they do still go by religious scripture, most are very very similar and differ only in minor issues. The ones who blatently go against religious scripture eg. Ahmadi's are absolutely not regarded as muslims, by the rest of the muslim world.

Again in your limited interpretation of your faith. How do you feel about Sufism for example?

Islam itself is fundamentally a belief, and it acknowledges that human beings are not perfect therefore everyone will sin, be it on different levels - some more then others. If someone commits a sin though, that does not take them out of the fold of Islam, however, if someone does not actually believe, then they have left Islam. So under no circumstance, with no amount of debating or arguing or interpretation could somebody say they do not believe in God but they are muslim, it is simply not possible.

I do not think I said that.

Christians however can and indeed an entire movement that follow the teachings of Christ do not believe in God. Christian Atheism. We also have Jewish Secularism. Among the Abrahamic Religions, only Islam is so arrogant as to assume free will should be subservient to the will of God in all things, and then it is dependent entirely on interpretation.

 

[LordSplodge]

Why would a deity do what you say,
even the Christian God does not have to answer prayers.

I've swore at quite a few of my deities and I'm still in one piece!

That's the trouble with the Abrahamic religions - too much faith in a book.

 

[Castiel]

adam and eve were first mentioned in the sumerian tekst and they were the oldest civilization so go figure where the bible and koran got their idea from and the sumerian people talked about them being genetically engineered by extra terrestrials. its a tough story to swallow but humans could be a branch of et at least in our dna

Erm.....no.

According to Sumerian Mythology, a pantheon of Gods created Humanity as the servants for themselves.

In the myth, Nammu,who is either the river or sea goddess goes to her son Enki and tells him to rise from his deep sleep and fashion servants of the Gods. Enki, who is the God of wisdom uses the clay and waters of the abyss in which he sleeps and tells Nammu to have the lesser Gods of fertility and beauty to fashion it so that she can mold it and give birth to it. The Gods then make hundreds of Men/Women and in their celebration and drinking Enki and Ninmah create a blind man, a barren woman, a person unable to control his urine, a hobbled disabled man, a person without male or female organs and so on.

Each was given a specific job, the blind man a singer, the barren woman, a weaver and the person without sexual organs was to stand before the King.

The myth goes on and is highly stylised and complex. But in essence the Sumerian's did not ascribe to a extraterrestrial creation myth (although it could be interpreted as that by modern thinking) and neither did they ascribe to the creation of a single Man and Woman, but the creation of thousands of individuals.

 

[sajtion]

Erm.....no.

According to Sumerian Mythology, a pantheon of Gods created Humanity as the servants for themselves.

In the myth, Nammu,who is either the river or sea goddess goes to her son Enki and tells him to rise from his deep sleep and fashion servants of the Gods. Enki, who is the God of wisdom uses the clay and waters of the abyss in which he sleeps and tells Nammu to have the lesser Gods of fertility and beauty to fashion it so that she can mold it and give birth to it. The Gods then make hundreds of Men/Women and in their celebration and drinking Enki and Ninmah create a blind man, a barren woman, a person unable to control his urine, a hobbled disabled man, a person without male or female organs and so on.

Each was given a specific job, the blind man a singer, the barren woman, a weaver and the person without sexual organs was to stand before the King.

The myth goes on and is highly stylised and complex. But in essence the Sumerian's did not ascribe to a extraterrestrial creation myth (although it could be interpreted as that by modern thinking) and neither did they ascribe to the creation of a single Man and Woman, but the creation of thousands of individuals.

if you didn't know gods of the ancient, star or sky people are referred to extra terrestrials today. if you read between the lines it makes sense. that's what at least some ancient scholars believe and there is a lot of evidence in their historical records to point to some sort of external influence in their civilization. whether the first human hybrid adam and eve were first created there is questionable but you can't deny that adam and eve names were first noted in sumerian society and later prescribed to bible and koran as the god first creation.

 

[Castiel]

if you didn't know gods of the ancient, star or sky people are referred to extra terrestrials today. if you read between the lines it makes sense. that's what at least some ancient scholars believe and there is a lot of evidence in their historical records to point to some sort of external influence in their civilization. whether the first human hybrid adam and eve were first created there is questionable but you can't deny that adam and eve names were first noted in sumerian society and later prescribed to bible and koran as the god first creation.

I can and did deny it. Sumerian creation myth doesnt ascribe to a single man/woman creation with humanity then being the issue of those two individuals.

And which scholars refer to sumerian gods as being extraterrestials? names please...

 

[SexyGreyFox]

And which scholars refer to sumerian gods as being extraterrestials? names please...

Probably Eric Von Danniken or Graham Hancock