Religion - I can understand someone believing in god/jesus, but why do they believe in the bible?

[Tetsujin]

Not if he can see the same cat on the mat as Bunnykillbot

Hehe. Bunnyboy did have a point there, but, it was kind of a point to nothing. It didn't add anything, really. Ok so words have vague definitions... ace... what's that supposed to do, be a catch-all excuse for religion being a faith-based position? Make it impossible for anyone to refute any religious tenet, just because the words are vague? Nope...

Sure, on the surface yes, two people's ideas of any word will/can be different. But if you, Bunny, are trying to say it's not possible to gain a succinct understanding of a sufficiently-linguistically-versed associate's position? No. With sufficient time, care and understanding, mutual agreement can be reached. Not by all persons in all circumstances but it can be good enough to matter in the context of assessing the relative worth or validity of a given position.

tl;dr I don't think it's valid to claim that there's an internally-consistent position you can hold that, provided you have the intellect to do so, you can't explain to another suitably intellectually equipped individual.

 

[Tetsujin]

Now now, boys, come along.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Wow, great argument boys. So does God exist or not?

No way of proving it one way or another. Lots of people believe he does. Lots of people believe he doesn't. Some people believe they can't possibly know whether or not he exists and so believe that they don't know. People who don't understand science use it to argue their case, whichever side they're on, and people who don't understand religious faith use that to argue their case, whichever side they're on.

That about sums up every religious discussion we ever have on here.

 

[tasslehoff]

er...what happened to the last page/posts after this?

 

[Castiel]

er...what happened to the last page/posts after this?

God did it....you asked for proof, well there it is.

 

[Freefaller]

That's better....

 

[Castiel]

That's better....

 

[Castiel]

No way of proving it one way or another. Lots of people believe he does. Lots of people believe he doesn't. Some people believe they can't possibly know whether or not he exists and so believe that they don't know. People who don't understand science use it to argue their case, whichever side they're on, and people who don't understand religious faith use that to argue their case, whichever side they're on.

That about sums up every religious discussion we ever have on here.

I like to think that I understand a bit of both science and faith, which is why I am agnostic I suppose as I can't yet reconcile the two.

 

[Freefaller]

Go away and/or stop trolling the forums.

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Izzy I have one final challenge to offer you, Heaven. Its got a bit of a preamble and i have no doubt its quite waffly so i don't expect you to read it, but i'm always open to suprises.

So to get to the point:
You claim that there exists one, true understanding of the term 'Heaven' which, it so happens, is your understanding of the term 'Heaven'. Thereby, because there is only one understanding of the term 'Heaven', which is your understanding of the term 'Heaven', your sisters is wrong.

Dear Bunnykins, I did read your post and I'll bypass the cat on the mat bit and get to the point quicker (hint hint! )

I presumed peoples perception of heaven to be somewhere you end up in an afterlife ? There's also chocolate heaven of course

Muslims version of heaven ( confirmed on this forum many times) is they die and live forever in paradise being served by beautiful virgins. Where this paradise is I have no idea but predictably with Islams views on women this doesn't account what happens to Muslim women when they die unless they become born again virgins and waitresses or whatever.

My sisters view of heaven and that of many thousands of Christadelphians is that there is no heaven until Jesus returns and creates heaven on Earth for them alone

Christadelphians reject a number of doctrines held by many other Christians, notably the immortality of the soul, trinitarianism, the pre-existence of Christ , the baptism of infants, the personhood of the Holy Spirit and the present-day possession of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They believe that the word devil is a reference to sin and human nature in opposition to God while the word satan is merely a reference to an adversary (be it good or bad). According to Christadelphians, these terms are used in reference to specific political systems or individuals in opposition or conflict. Hell is understood to refer to death and the grave, rather than being a place of eternal torment.

Christadelphians do not believe that anyone can go to Heaven. Instead, they believe that only Christ Jesus went to Heaven, and when Christ Jesus comes back to the earth the true believers being Christadelphians and they alone will live in the Land of Israel which will be the Kingdom of God on Earth. Christadelphians believe the doctrines they reject were introduced into Christendom after the 1st century, and cannot be demonstrated from the Bible.

I wait with interest to see how some of you view their perception.
My atheist view of course is that as time goes by there will be several trillion Christadelphians spirits waiting.....waiting......

 

[Castiel]

My atheist view of course is that as time goes by there will be several trillion Christadelphians spirits waiting.....waiting......

Strange view to have as an Atheist. You mean to say that you believe that the Christadelphians have a supernatural spirit. Very strange, most atheists I know wouldn't believe that anyone was waiting for anything as God and by association Heaven and the return of Christ do not exist.

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Strange view to have as an Atheist. You mean to say that you believe that the Christadelphians have a supernatural spirit. Very strange, most atheists I know wouldn't believe that anyone was waiting for anything as God and by association Heaven and the return of Christ do not exist.

No, I didn't really put that the right way did I,
the fact I think they will wait forever is because I believe there is no god and therefore as time goes by there will be countless numbers of them waiting for something that will never happen, does that make more sense?

 

[Castiel]

No, I didn't really put that the right way did I,
the fact I think they will wait forever is because I believe there is no god and therefore as time goes by there will be countless numbers of them waiting for something that will never happen, does that make more sense?

Sort of, if you believe that the Christadelphians are immortal and will wait forever, I suppose that makes sense.

Personally as an Agnostic, I believe that they will find out when they die one way or the other and that the numbers who believe or who will wait is entirely dependant upon the amount of adherents to the Christadelphian Faith at any given time.

As an atheist I would have assumed that your belief would be along the lines that they were simply mistaken and wasting their time, rather than any acceptance that their numbers would increase over time due to their belief.

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Sort of, if you believe that the Christadelphians are immortal and will wait forever, I suppose that makes sense.

As an atheist I would have assumed that your belief would be along the lines that they were simply mistaken and wasting their time, rather than any acceptance that their numbers would increase over time due to their belief.

I totally believe they are wasting their time, thinking about it maybe I made a stupid assumption that for their dead and waiting ( can't think of a suitable word other than spirit) numbers to get to trillions would take us into the 29th century and beyond and maybe by then we will have been invaded and taken over by aliens and religion will have petered out

 

[semi-pro waster]

Does anyone think that perhaps the bible etc was merely borne on the lack of knowledge at the time & had to "find" a higher being to explain away mysterious ailments/phenomena etc at the time? I mean...the burning bush....if that's not a reference to medieval vd/jock itch then I don't know what is. Things get lost in translation along the way. & then you have idiots..yes...IDIOTS..who this day & age still believe it all. Anyway...if it keeps you happy...whatever floats ya boat & all that...(or sinks it...depending on the religion lol)

It's a possibility that a belief in gods was originally to explain what people could not by other means - to misappropriate a quote from Arthur C. Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." and likewise elements that happen outwith the ken of the people of the time might appear to be created by a magical being. However even if we allowed that as an explanation it doesn't prove in any way that gods could not exist, it might mean that people were worshipping gods of their imagination rather than ones that did/do exist but we've got no way of proving that at the moment.

Personally as an Agnostic, I believe that they will find out when they die one way or the other and that the numbers who believe or who will wait is entirely dependant upon the amount of adherents to the Christadelphian Faith at any given time.

Finding out is a bit of a loose term - if there really is nothing after this life then it's difficult to be aware/find out what happens when it ends.

 

[e36Adz]

Muslims version of heaven ( confirmed on this forum many times) is they die and live forever in paradise being served by beautiful virgins. Where this paradise is I have no idea but predictably with Islams views on women this doesn't account what happens to Muslim women when they die unless they become born again virgins and waitresses or whatever.

Just to pick up on this point - you are correct that one aspect of heaven is that there exist woman that are unlike anything seen on this earth, but there are also many other aspects. Heaven is there to fulfil every need and desire that any human being could ever have, and man in his very nature was created to desire woman.

There are many descriptions given in the Quran and hadith about 'paradise' which are used in a language where we can pick up some sort of mental image, eg. gardens, rivers etc but at the same time we are also told that no human mind can imagine what heaven is like, because there is nothing similar we have ever encountered on earth.

The greatest of all satisfaction in heaven will be that the occupants of heaven will be able to see God, 'as one can see the sun when there are no clouds' the prophet Muhammed pbuh said.

I think the christian belief is that Heaven can only be attained through Jesus Christ pbuh. Muslims believe that Heaven can be attained only by the mercy of God - but those who commit shirk ie. associate partners with God, or takie for worship anything else besides God, or putting something or someone on the same level as God... will never enter heaven. We live in a time now where shirk is everywhere, even many muslims commit shirk unknowingly. The hadith of the prophet pbuh has been fulfilled, he said '"Shirk in the Muslim nation is more inconspicuous than the creeping of the black ant on a black rock in the pitch darkness of the night."

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Finding out is a bit of a loose term - if there really is nothing after this life then it's difficult to be aware/find out what happens when it ends.

as there seems to be no genuine evidence of any contact from beyond the grave I have to draw my own conclusions

 

[semi-pro waster]

as there seems to be no genuine evidence of any contact from beyond the grave I have to draw my own conclusions

I'm sure it's already been done in this thread but what constitutes evidence and what constitutes evidence you'd accept? As they're not necessarily the same thing. And even if they fortuitously coincide that doesn't irrefutably prove that there is not any sort of afterlife - absence of evidence not being evidence of absence and all that jazz.

 

[izzy eckerslike]

I'm sure it's already been done in this thread but what constitutes evidence and what constitutes evidence you'd accept? As they're not necessarily the same thing. And even if they fortuitously coincide that doesn't irrefutably prove that there is not any sort of afterlife - absence of evidence not being evidence of absence and all that jazz.

Yes, we've been down this road countless times including references to the tooth fairy,Loch Ness monster,Yeti, bigfoot, pink Elephant, goblins & fairies,angels,ghosts, mermaids, non greedy banker, flying saucers etc. and all the other unseen stuff that apparently some people think may well exist because we simply can't prove that they don't.

But is that a logical answer in the light of modern mobile camera technology being carried by just about everybody when you consider that all previous grainy shaky photographic evidence of any of the above has been found to be faked and the Loch Ness monster is a classic example of this so you have to ask yourself why do people do it other than to get a bit of publicity for themselves.

 

[semi-pro waster]

But is that a logical answer in the light of modern mobile camera technology being carried by just about everybody when you consider that all previous grainy shaky photographic evidence of any of the above has been found to be faked and the Loch Ness monster is a classic example of this so you have to ask yourself why do people do it other than to get a bit of publicity for themselves.

For the sake of keeping this brief - whether it appears to be logical only matters if you take the assumption that things have to be logical as your starting point. This may not be the case and if it isn't then you're starting from a position where you're relying on a mechanism to determine "truth" where it cannot do so.

If you want to say that without logic our lives would be considerably more difficult then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you but where I perhaps differ is that I consider it is possible (even if not necessarily plausible) that logic is not absolute as a tool for explaining everything.