The Paranormal vs Perception

Soldato
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I was in the pub today, and as normal with drink come the usual nonsense debates and chats.

Well todays was the paranormal. Ghosts and the unexplained. Now most the guys I was chatting with flat out believed that ghosts didnt exist, Which is my point of view too. The girls obviously believed (I dont know why but they always seem to believe)

Anyways I threw a new possibility into the conversation, and we left wondering if this was actually case! The girls didnt understand ( I dont know why but they always seem to get confused)

As you know, What we see is only our brains interpretation of what is there. We cannot see the infrared spectrum for example.

When ghosts are seen, Are we seeing mis-information? Is our brain trying to compensate for something? Is it possible something is there?? Now think about it, We have 5 senses. Who is to say that what is there is visable by any of the senses the human body has? Dogs can smell on a completely different level to what humans can. Maybe what is out there can only be seen by someone who can see on a completely different level to us.

Yeah, Chatter with Drink can be fun.
 
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WE have cameras/sensors that can "see/detect" pretty much anything on the em spectrum, so if a human can sense it we'd have damn well seen it on one of them by now.

But your eyes suck in the dark and can't focus on the centre of your vision (the b&w rods are at 45 degrees irc so you have to look around an object to see it clearly) combined with how your brain tends to see patterns that arn't really there and people will see all sorts.
 
WE have cameras/sensors that can "see/detect" pretty much anything on the em spectrum, so if a human can sense it we'd have damn well seen it on one of them by now.

But your eyes suck in the dark and can't focus on the centre of your vision (the b&w rods are at 45 degrees irc so you have to look around an object to see it clearly) combined with how your brain tends to see patterns that arn't really there and people will see all sorts.

+1.
 
The brain is pretty damn good at trying to patch holes in your perception hence why illusions work, tefal is spot on.

It is good at patching holes, but its not perfect.

I dont remember exactly how it works but certain nerves in the brain are generally responsible for 2 colours. 1 nerve is responsible for pink and green... And a particular optical illusion works by stimulating both colours at once, making the nerve bring out a neutral white. but concentrating on 1 of the colours moves your brains tolerance for the colour not being concentrated on, And this makes us see colours which arent there.

If the brain can be tricked in that way, by simply throwing 2 colours at it which happen to be on the same nerve. Then the brain is far from infallible.


*edit I've said nerve a few times. And I cant for the life of me think whether its the correct word or not :p
 
It is good at patching holes, but its not perfect.

I dont remember exactly how it works but certain nerves in the brain are generally responsible for 2 colours. 1 nerve is responsible for pink and green... And a particular optical illusion works by stimulating both colours at once, making the nerve bring out a neutral white. but concentrating on 1 of the colours moves your brains tolerance for the colour not being concentrated on, And this makes us see colours which arent there.

If the brain can be tricked in that way, by simply throwing 2 colours at it which happen to be on the same nerve. Then the brain is far from infallible.

Thats what I was getting at though, we are far from perfect and a lot of people will see what they want to see in a situation that stinks a little bit of paranormal, hence the reference to illusions. if anything like that truly existed by god science would have uprooted it by now, no doubt.
 
if anything like that truly existed by god science would have uprooted it by now, no doubt.
I really do despair at these all-encompassing and sweeping general statements :rolleyes:
 
the brain is a reducing value that filters most of reality out and allows us to concentrate on the part of reality that is important to survival.

read this classic book :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception
The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful.” According to such a theory, each one of us is potentially Mind at Large. But in so far as we are animals, our business is at all costs to survive. To make biological survival possible, Mind at Large has to be funneled through the reducing valve of the brain and nervous system. What comes out at the other end is a measly trickle of the kind of consciousness which will help us to stay alive on the surface of this Particular planet. To formulate and express the contents of this reduced awareness, man has invented and endlessly elaborated those symbol-systems and implicit philosophies which we call languages. Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born—the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things. That which, in the language of religion, is called “this world” is the universe of reduced awareness, expressed, and, as it were, petrified by language. The various “other worlds,” with which human beings erratically make contact are so many elements in the totality of the awareness belonging to Mind at Large. Most people, most of the time, know only what comes through the reducing valve and is consecrated as genuinely real by the local language. Certain persons, however, seem to be born with a kind of by-pass that circumvents the reducing valve. In others temporary by-passes may be acquired either spontaneously, or as the result of deliberate “spiritual exercises,” or through hypnosis, or by means of drugs. Through these permanent or temporary by-passes there flows, not indeed the perception “of everything that is happening everywhere in the universe” (for the by-pass does not abolish the reducing valve, which still excludes the total content of Mind at Large), but something more than, and above all something different from, the carefully selected utilitarian material which our narrowed, individual minds regard as a complete, or at least sufficient, picture of reality.
 
Can't remember the figure, but the majority of what you "see" is just your brains interpretation of reality, most of it is really just good guess work as your brain doesn't have enough power to process everything your eyes are telling it. Think of it showing you a highly compressed video stream, some of it is detailed the rest of it isn't.
 
I'm open minded, could you at least provide some examples of this?

How can you be open-minded and come out with a statement like this.

if anything like that truly existed by god science would have uprooted it by now, no doubt.

This is likely to detract from the conversation going on above, but a rather interesting example that surfaced this year revealled, an alleged "rapping" originating from within a surface, as opposed to across or on the surface of an object (itself) concerning alleged poltergeist:




Scientific Evidence Of Poltergeist Knockings Found?
Submitted by Javier Ortega on July 1, 2010 – 9:48 AM26 Comments | 1,007 views.The SPR (Society for Psychical Research) published an article from Dr Barrie Colvin B.Sc., Ph.D., in which Dr. Colvin talks about a possible scientific evidence of a poltergeist knock.

Although the claim itself does not sound all too interesting, looking at the collected evidence, one can quickly appreciate Dr. Colvin’s discovery. Dr. Colvin was able to record a supposed poltergeist knock, and compare that to one produced by ordinary means and the results are impressive.

“…Whilst the two types of rap sound rather similar, they are actually acoustically different, although the effect is only made apparent when the recordings of raps are submitted to detailed analysis. The sample involved 10 separate recordings recorded on different recording apparatus. In each of the recordings, when subjected to acoustic analysis, a particular sound pattern is detected which so far remains unexplained. Attempts to replicate this pattern in ordinary ways have so far been unsuccessful. The essential difference between these raps and those produced by normal means lies in the details of their sound envelope.”


Normal double rap

Unexplained rap
Dr. Colvin’s discovery opens the door to many theories on the poltergeist phenomenon. Are the knockings and raps that one hears in a supposed poltergeist case a product of the acoustics of physical objects? Or are these sounds attributed to environmental factors, much like the theory for residual hauntings in which it is said that sometimes the environment (lei lines, quartz, lime, EMF) can cause a “recording” from images of the past; which in turn can arbitrarily project onto thin air?

Full article: Society for Psychical Research

Paranormal rappings associated with apparent poltergeist activity have been described for many hundreds of years. It is only now that an interesting pattern has been discovered within the fine detail of the paranormal rapping sounds. No explanation can be found for this pattern at present.

The current edition of the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research (SPR), a learned publication dating back to 1882, carries an article by scientist Dr Barrie Colvin B.Sc., Ph.D., showing instrumental evidence for an inexplicable and objective banging sound detected in recordings made during alleged poltergeist activity.

Whereas raps and knocking sounds produced by ordinary means exhibit a normal acoustic pattern, those recorded in alleged poltergeist cases show quite a different sound signature.

Dr Colvin has analysed recordings of alleged poltergeist knocking obtained from around the world over a 40-year period. The earliest was a recording made by a local physician at Sauchie (Scotland) in 1960 and the most recent was obtained from a poltergeist case at Euston Square, London in 2000.

Whilst the two types of rap sound rather similar, they are actually acoustically different, although the effect is only made apparent when the recordings of raps are submitted to detailed analysis.

The sample involved 10 separate recordings recorded on different recording apparatus.

In each of the recordings, when subjected to acoustic analysis, a particular sound pattern is detected which so far remains unexplained. Attempts to replicate this pattern in ordinary ways have so far been unsuccessful.

The essential difference between these raps and those produced by normal means lies in the details of their sound envelope.

In the case of a normal rap, the sound (which often only lasts a few milliseconds) starts loudly and decays over a period of time. The loudest part of the sound is right at the beginning. In the case of a poltergeist rap, the loudest part is near the beginning of the sound – but not at the very beginning. The rapping sound starts relatively quietly and works up to a maximum before it then starts to decay. This effect has been seen in all ten of the poltergeist cases studied.

The question arises as to how such a sound is generated. There is evidence which points to the sound arising from within the structure of a material rather than from the surface of it, as would be the case with a normally-produced rapping sound. This phenomenon will be examined further in future investigations of poltergeist activity.

Dr Colvin states: “Ever since my personal involvement in the investigation of a rapping poltergeist at Andover, Hampshire, in which it was absolutely clear that no normal explanation could account for the observed phenomena, I wondered whether the recorded raps were in any way different to those produced by normal methods. It is now clear that they are indeed different”.

Among the samples submitted for analysis were recordings made in the famous Enfield poltergeist case in north London during 1977-79.

Dr Colvin’s research is published in his article ‘The Acoustic Properties of Unexplained Rapping Sounds’ in the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research [2010] Vol 73.2 Number 899 pp 65-93.

The SPR holds no corporate opinions.

Full article: Society for Psychical Research
 
How can you be open-minded and come out with a statement like this.



This is likely to detract from the conversation going on above, but a rather interesting example that surfaced this year revealled, an alleged "rapping" originating from within a surface, as opposed to across or on the surface of an object (itself) concerning alleged poltergeist:




Scientific Evidence Of Poltergeist Knockings Found?
Submitted by Javier Ortega on July 1, 2010 – 9:48 AM26 Comments | 1,007 views.The SPR (Society for Psychical Research) published an article from Dr Barrie Colvin B.Sc., Ph.D., in which Dr. Colvin talks about a possible scientific evidence of a poltergeist knock.

Although the claim itself does not sound all too interesting, looking at the collected evidence, one can quickly appreciate Dr. Colvin’s discovery. Dr. Colvin was able to record a supposed poltergeist knock, and compare that to one produced by ordinary means and the results are impressive.

“…Whilst the two types of rap sound rather similar, they are actually acoustically different, although the effect is only made apparent when the recordings of raps are submitted to detailed analysis. The sample involved 10 separate recordings recorded on different recording apparatus. In each of the recordings, when subjected to acoustic analysis, a particular sound pattern is detected which so far remains unexplained. Attempts to replicate this pattern in ordinary ways have so far been unsuccessful. The essential difference between these raps and those produced by normal means lies in the details of their sound envelope.”


Normal double rap

Unexplained rap
Dr. Colvin’s discovery opens the door to many theories on the poltergeist phenomenon. Are the knockings and raps that one hears in a supposed poltergeist case a product of the acoustics of physical objects? Or are these sounds attributed to environmental factors, much like the theory for residual hauntings in which it is said that sometimes the environment (lei lines, quartz, lime, EMF) can cause a “recording” from images of the past; which in turn can arbitrarily project onto thin air?

Full article: Society for Psychical Research

Paranormal rappings associated with apparent poltergeist activity have been described for many hundreds of years. It is only now that an interesting pattern has been discovered within the fine detail of the paranormal rapping sounds. No explanation can be found for this pattern at present.

The current edition of the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research (SPR), a learned publication dating back to 1882, carries an article by scientist Dr Barrie Colvin B.Sc., Ph.D., showing instrumental evidence for an inexplicable and objective banging sound detected in recordings made during alleged poltergeist activity.

Whereas raps and knocking sounds produced by ordinary means exhibit a normal acoustic pattern, those recorded in alleged poltergeist cases show quite a different sound signature.

Dr Colvin has analysed recordings of alleged poltergeist knocking obtained from around the world over a 40-year period. The earliest was a recording made by a local physician at Sauchie (Scotland) in 1960 and the most recent was obtained from a poltergeist case at Euston Square, London in 2000.

Whilst the two types of rap sound rather similar, they are actually acoustically different, although the effect is only made apparent when the recordings of raps are submitted to detailed analysis.

The sample involved 10 separate recordings recorded on different recording apparatus.

In each of the recordings, when subjected to acoustic analysis, a particular sound pattern is detected which so far remains unexplained. Attempts to replicate this pattern in ordinary ways have so far been unsuccessful.

The essential difference between these raps and those produced by normal means lies in the details of their sound envelope.

In the case of a normal rap, the sound (which often only lasts a few milliseconds) starts loudly and decays over a period of time. The loudest part of the sound is right at the beginning. In the case of a poltergeist rap, the loudest part is near the beginning of the sound – but not at the very beginning. The rapping sound starts relatively quietly and works up to a maximum before it then starts to decay. This effect has been seen in all ten of the poltergeist cases studied.

The question arises as to how such a sound is generated. There is evidence which points to the sound arising from within the structure of a material rather than from the surface of it, as would be the case with a normally-produced rapping sound. This phenomenon will be examined further in future investigations of poltergeist activity.

Dr Colvin states: “Ever since my personal involvement in the investigation of a rapping poltergeist at Andover, Hampshire, in which it was absolutely clear that no normal explanation could account for the observed phenomena, I wondered whether the recorded raps were in any way different to those produced by normal methods. It is now clear that they are indeed different”.

Among the samples submitted for analysis were recordings made in the famous Enfield poltergeist case in north London during 1977-79.

Dr Colvin’s research is published in his article ‘The Acoustic Properties of Unexplained Rapping Sounds’ in the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research [2010] Vol 73.2 Number 899 pp 65-93.

The SPR holds no corporate opinions.

Full article: Society for Psychical Research

Okay so basically your article basically says 'poltergeist' noises have a bit of an acoustic buildup. That's hardly rock solid evidence that a) ghosts exist and b) ghosts are responsible. This article describes a sound phenomenon, not a clear cut example of paranormal activity.

Just because I don't actively hunt this stuff doesn't mean I'm not open minded, that article is just people faffing over an acoustic anomaly. Doctors, intelligent people faffing over an aucoustic anomaly, god I give in.
 
The article was about the potential differences between the sounds somebody might make by simply physically knocking upon a surface natuarally and those that are not or not so straight forward. Either way it is a useful indicator; one of which seems to be of no interest to you concerning unexplained sounds in alleged hauntings?

if anything like that truly existed by god science would have uprooted it by now, no doubt.
Not necessarily as the example you so easily shrug off could be one in which the opposite is the case.

Edit: If truth be known it is I that give in.:rolleyes: You might also note that the above phenomena was recorded along with other typical paranormal activity.
 
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The article was about the potential differences between the sounds somebody might make by simply physically knocking upon a surface natuarally and those that are not or not so straight forward. Either way it is a useful indicator; one of which seems to be of no interest to you concerning unexplained sounds in alleged hauntings?

Not necessarily as the example you so easily shrug off could be one in which the opposite is the case.

Edit: If truth be known it is I that give in.:rolleyes: You might also note that the above phenomena was recorded along with other typical paranormal activity.

I'm not trying to screw you over here, I am genuinely interested in this stuff, I was one of those stupid children that 'saw' enough things to make my parents move house back in the 80s.

I'm not going to ignore list you, come on lets be fair, we have differing opinions, I'm not a douchebag, you're as entitled as I am. I just don't see where this study is breaking ground, skeptic at heart and all.
 
Can't remember the figure, but the majority of what you "see" is just your brains interpretation of reality, most of it is really just good guess work as your brain doesn't have enough power to process everything your eyes are telling it. Think of it showing you a highly compressed video stream, some of it is detailed the rest of it isn't.

is this why sometimes i find myself only being able to "see"- or take in something i'm directly looking at?.. -- other times i'm fine, but sometimes i walk into a room or down the street and there could be a hundred gorillas dotted around and i wouldnt know the difference so long as i wasn't directly looking at them..
 
It is good at patching holes, but its not perfect.

I dont remember exactly how it works but certain nerves in the brain are generally responsible for 2 colours. 1 nerve is responsible for pink and green... And a particular optical illusion works by stimulating both colours at once, making the nerve bring out a neutral white. but concentrating on 1 of the colours moves your brains tolerance for the colour not being concentrated on, And this makes us see colours which arent there.

If the brain can be tricked in that way, by simply throwing 2 colours at it which happen to be on the same nerve. Then the brain is far from infallible.


*edit I've said nerve a few times. And I cant for the life of me think whether its the correct word or not :p

that's the point, you brain is very good at seeing patterns but it often sees patterns in random data, like the static from your half working eyes in the dark.
 
I made this thread a couple of years ago which started with my experience and then the answer - http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17870238&highlight=ghost+startername_dmpoole

At the time it was real and happened but I knew there would be an explanation after investigation.

I remember this thread, basically you came to a website known for being the most non-believing in spirituality and the paranormal and everyone convinced you it was something totally banal, which you wanted anyway. You were uncomfortable with what happened so sought out a normal explanation from people who you knew would give it to you so you could feel at ease about it. It was kind of sad to watch it happen.
 
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