Pope says condoms "sometimes ok"

semi-pro waster · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:01

[Pope] Benedict said condoms are not a moral solution to stopping Aids, but he said in some cases, such as for male prostitutes, their use could represent a first step in assuming moral responsibility "in the intention of reducing the risk of infection".

I don't see a thread on this yet from a search so thought it was worth opening up for discussion - is this a valuable step from the Catholic Church? Is this too little too late? Does it even matter what the Catholic Church thinks?

For my money it has got to be a valuable step in that some people look to the Catholic Church for moral guidance and this, while ultimately a small concession in acceptance covers a fairly huge shift in message from the Church. I hope however that it doesn't stagnate here again, the initial inertia is often hardest to get over but once moving it would be nice from an outsiders point of view to see a vaguely more realistic approach to how the Church views sex overall. I realise that he can't give exhaustive lists of when it is ok but I'd have preferred if it had been mentioned as for anyone at risk of catching HIV/AIDS rather than this association (intentional or not) that it is still a "gay" disease.

Taken from The Guardian but take your pick of the news sources, most are reporting it.

Greenlizard0 · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:11

The churches original view, and one that it stuck to for years was that people shouldn't be shagging around anyway. So in that sense, you don't need condoms if a person shows restraint in his/her sexual habits.

However I've always thought it damn irresponsible to give such advice being that human nature at large has never been like that, or will ever want to think in such a way. It's worse after aids came about, and yet for years the church still chose that aforementioned line.

Glaucus · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:12

Step in the right direction, but you can't blame the church.

If they followed the church they would only have sex in marriage. If they don't follow that, then why are they following the no condom rule? Simply because they don;t wont to, either feel or lack of education/money

[FnG]magnolia · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:22

What prompted the change in stance/message? Interesting stuff.

Greenlizard0 · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:28

[FnG]magnolia;17835794 said:
What prompted the change in stance/message? Interesting stuff.

A slap to the back of his head.

To be fair maybe the new Pope is finally sticking to his guns. He came straight in and realised that the Church and its messages were often far too out of date, out of place or utopic (therefore irresponsible). As soon as he made noises about wanting to bring it forward, a lot of the traditional conservatives threw a wobbly and he was forced onto the back foot.

Vampire · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:30

Sweet, that's one less thing to confess next time I'm in. Just need him to allow swearing, drinking, looking at pr0n etc and jobs a good-un.

More seriously, it's a huge step for the church to make, and one in the right direction IMO.

Parsifal · 21 Nov 2010 at 11:56

Good news for choir boys.

Dave M · 21 Nov 2010 at 12:12

I thought cathloic views on contraception were to do with peventing a life being created? I doubt gays are going to be doing that so it's just a minor clarification.

Bit of an odd statement though as surely anyone who is gay isn't taking the rules of the catholic church seriously anyway? It'd be like going on a murderous rampage but not daring to drop litter.

DanH84 · 21 Nov 2010 at 12:14

Telescopi said:
I thought cathloic views on contraception were to do with peventing a life being created? I doubt gays are going to be doing that so it's just a minor clarification.

Bit of an odd statement though as surely anyone who is gay isn't taking the rules of the catholic church seriously anyway? It'd be like going on a murderous rampage but not daring to drop litter.

it's also for prostitution.

It's a step, small but potentially valuable.

Pav89 · 21 Nov 2010 at 12:35

Telescopi said:
I thought cathloic views on contraception were to do with peventing a life being created? I doubt gays are going to be doing that so it's just a minor clarification.

Bit of an odd statement though as surely anyone who is gay isn't taking the rules of the catholic church seriously anyway? It'd be like going on a murderous rampage but not daring to drop litter.

Maybe he's starting to accept that gay people exist and male prostitutes exist... Respect for the guy, he may be wanting to change the rules but isn't sure what 'feedback' hes going to get, so is taking one step at a time?

semi-pro waster · 21 Nov 2010 at 13:00

[FnG]magnolia;17835794 said:
What prompted the change in stance/message? Interesting stuff.

A realisation that the 21st Century is here? I'm not too sure but I'm happy that there is at least some progress, however small.

Telescopi said:
I thought cathloic views on contraception were to do with peventing a life being created? I doubt gays are going to be doing that so it's just a minor clarification.

As far as I'm aware the Pope and Catholic Church are still against condoms being used for contraception but assuming for a second this is the start to a more "sensible" approach to contraception overall with such ingrained beliefs on the subject it would have to be a series of small steps to avoid alienating the core believers.

Telescopi said:
Bit of an odd statement though as surely anyone who is gay isn't taking the rules of the catholic church seriously anyway? It'd be like going on a murderous rampage but not daring to drop litter.

It's an all or nothing approach then for you? As far as I'm aware Catholicism doesn't state that people cannot be gay, it does however expect them to be chaste. My view (for all the importance that merits given that I'm not Catholic or indeed religious in any way) is that I'd think people can follow pretty much everything else and still be considered Catholic because people choose to take on some tenets of religion yet drop others all the time.

Dinomania · 21 Nov 2010 at 14:09

semi-pro waster said:
I'd have preferred if it had been mentioned as for anyone at risk of catching HIV/AIDS rather than this association (intentional or not) that it is still a "gay" disease.

Not sure he was making that link, really...

Telescopi said:
I thought cathloic views on contraception were to do with peventing a life being created? I doubt gays are going to be doing that so it's just a minor clarification.

semi-pro waster said:
As far as I'm aware the Pope and Catholic Church are still against condoms being used for contraception [...]

My thoughts echo these - he's said maybe it has a place with male prostitution - /male/ - where their use isn't getting in the way of conception anyway.

Rameses · 21 Nov 2010 at 14:17

Never ceases to amaze me when statements like this relating to sex, are released by the Pope & his minions...

Common Sense seems to be pushing its way through their warped minds, albeit slowly.

One day they might get it.

:/

Dave M · 21 Nov 2010 at 14:37

semi-pro waster said:
It's an all or nothing approach then for you? As far as I'm aware Catholicism doesn't state that people cannot be gay, it does however expect them to be chaste. My view (for all the importance that merits given that I'm not Catholic or indeed religious in any way) is that I'd think people can follow pretty much everything else and still be considered Catholic because people choose to take on some tenets of religion yet drop others all the time.

Like most of Africa the 'no condoms' rule is more often than not a convenience because they don't want to use condoms.

But it does seem ridiculously stupid having blown away one of the major rules to then put your life in danger to follow any of the others. Bad priorities imo.

dowie · 21 Nov 2010 at 15:04

AcidHell2 said:
Step in the right direction, but you can't blame the church.

If they followed the church they would only have sex in marriage. If they don't follow that, then why are they following the no condom rule? Simply because they don;t wont to, either feel or lack of education/money

I guess the lack of availability of condoms and mis-information over their benefits in preventing the transmission of AIDS probably play a very big part. I wouldn't necessarily assume that everyone in Africa is fully aware (as you've pointed out - education), has access to condoms and is making an informed choice. Some people just don't have access and are simply doing what comes naturally.
The lack of availability in itself is party down to the stance of the Catholic Church etc...
Its pretty disgusting tbh... a very large number of deaths would be prevented if the pope simply approved the use of condoms. OK he's not actively killing people like say Hitler or Stalin but his lack of action is having the same net effect regardless of the fact that he naively believes (due to his belief in a magic sky pixie) that he is doing the right thing.

Koalaboy · 21 Nov 2010 at 15:11

dowie said:
Its pretty disgusting tbh... a very large number of deaths would be prevented if the pope simply approved the use of condoms.

So it's the pope's fault that people have sex, and then subsequent abortions ?

I'm pretty sure he says they shouldn't be having sex in the first place if they're not planning on having children.

I think you meant to say that a large number of deaths would be prevented if people only had sex for procreation. If people are having abortions, it's mostly because they were irresponsible themselves in the first place.

doofer · 21 Nov 2010 at 15:13

Because when you need Contraception or Sexual Advice folks, the best people to ask are Men wearing frocks and silly hats who are sworn to celibacy but have a proven record of paedophilia and homosexuality, and all with an imaginary friend in the sky. And if you don't do exactly what they tell you, you will BUUUUUUURRRRRRNNNNN FOREVER!!!!!!

[FnG]magnolia · 21 Nov 2010 at 19:44

Heard on the World Service this morning that a Vatican spokesman has 'moved quickly to clarify the Pope's recent comments'. Not such a big change as we thought, apparently.

Begbie · 21 Nov 2010 at 19:47

Tombstone · 21 Nov 2010 at 20:16

Seems to me over the years that the Pope has more power than God. I thought it was supposed to be the other way round.