Gotta love Yank airport security

rypt said:
Indeed, 2 AA batteries and some thin wire is as good as a lighter
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When I was writing that I thought up another. Camera lenses have loads of glass and metal in, could quite easily modify one to be dismantableable...

But then agin why go through the hassle? Just go through security with nothing and load up on glass and knives at in the departure lounge...:rolleyes:

(Still yet to order a steak from wetherspoons though so not sure if you get a steak knife with it?)
 
You don't. At least at Gatwick if you order a steak you get what looks like a bread knife :) It's metal and could still be used though.

On another situation, I was once asked to turn off my camera when taking off because it might have senders to disrupt the plane in them :confused:
Am I just completely wrong or is that a bit.. stupid?
 
All modern aircraft are unaffected by personal electronics now anyway afaik, the whole "turn off your phones, cameras, laptops, psps, etc" is just carry on from the old days
 
My TSA Encounter

“You don’t need to see his identification.”

On November 21, 2010, I was allowed to enter the U.S. through an airport security checkpoint without being x-rayed or touched by a TSA officer. This post explains how.

Edit: Minor edits for clarity. I have uploaded the audio and it is available here.

This past Sunday, I was returning from a trip to Europe. I flew from Paris to Cincinnati, landing in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.

As I got off my flight, I did all of the things that are normally requested from U.S. citizens returning from abroad. I filled out the customs declarations, confirmed that I hadn’t set foot on any farmland, and answered questions about the chocolates that I had purchased in Switzerland. While I don’t believe that these questions are necessary, I don’t mind answering them if it means some added security. They aren’t particularly intrusive. My passport was stamped, and I moved through customs a happy citizen returning home.

But wait – here was a second line to wait in.

This new line led to a TSA security checkpoint. You see, it is official TSA policy that people (both citizens and non-citizens alike) from international flights are screened as they enter the airport, despite the fact that they have already flown. Even before the new controversial security measures were put in place, I found this practice annoying. But now, as I looked past the 25 people waiting to get into their own country, I saw it: the dreaded Backscatter imaging machine.

Now, I’ve read a fair amount about the controversy surrounding the new TSA policies. I certainly don’t enjoy being treated like a terrorist in my own country, but I’m also not a die-hard constitutional rights advocate. However, for some reason, I was irked. Maybe it was the video of the 3-year old getting molested, maybe it was the sexual assault victim having to cry her way through getting groped, maybe it was the father watching teenage TSA officers joke about his attractive daughter. Whatever it was, this issue didn’t sit right with me. We shouldn’t be required to do this simply to get into our own country.

So, since I had nobody waiting for me at home and no connecting flight to catch, I had some free time. I decided to test my rights.

After putting all my stuff through the x-ray, I was asked to go through the Backscatter. I politely said that I didn’t want to. The technician quipped to his colleague, “We’ve got an opt-out.” They laughed. He turned back and started to explain.

After he finished, I said, “I understand what the pat-down entails, but I wanted to let you know that I do not give you permission to touch my genitals or the surrounding area. If you do, I will consider it assault.”

He called his manager over, who again informed me of the policy. Throughout this event, this happened quite a few times. After raising my concerns regarding the policy to an officer, they often simply quoted back the policy. For the sake of brevity, I will simply say “Policy restatement.”

I said, “I am aware that it is policy, but I disagree with the policy, and I think that it is unconstitutional. As a U.S. citizen, I have the right to move freely within my country as long as I can demonstrate proof of citizenship and have demonstrated no reasonable cause to be detained.”

Policy restatement. “You have two options – the Backscatter or the pat down. It is your choice, but those are the only ways you can go through security.”

I asked if I could speak to his manager.

“I’m the supervisor here.”

“Do you have a manager?”

“Yes, but he’s very far away at the moment. And he’ll say the same thing I am.” Policy restatement.

At this point, I took out my iPhone, activated the voice recorder, and asked The Supervisor, “Per my constitutional rights, I am not allowed to be detained without reasonable cause for arrest. Now, am I free to go?”

He answered, “If you leave, we will call the APD.”

I asked, “Who is the APD?”

“The Airport Police Department.”

I said, “Actually, that’s probably a good idea. Let’s call them and your manager.”

The Supervisor turned and walked away without saying anything. I stood and waited, chatting to The Technician about how they aren’t allowed to wear radiation badges, even though they work with radiation equipment. He said, “I think I’m a couple steps ahead of you regarding looking out for my own health.”

I stood and waited for 20 minutes. Two cops showed up. Big ones. I admit, I did not want to be handcuffed by these guys.

One cop was older than the other, but they were still clearly partners. Neither of them took the lead on answering my questions, and neither of them told the other what to do. They came over to me and asked me to explain the issue. I first showed them the iPhone. After I explained my position, they restated the policy to me.

I said, “Yes sir. I understand the policy, but I still disagree and I still don’t think that I can be made to do these searches in order to go home. Now am I free to go?”

They didn’t answer.

I repeated the question. “Since you are actual police officers and not simply TSA, I am sure you have had much more training on my rights as a U.S. citizen, so you understand what is at stake here. So, am I free to go? Or am I being detained?”

Young Cop answers, “You aren’t being detained, but you can’t go through there.”

“Isn’t that what detaining is? Preventing me from leaving?”

“You can leave if you want, but it has to be that direction.” He points back towards customs. Young Cop asks, “Why are you doing this?”

I explain that I’m worried that the Backscatter has unproven health risks. And that for all he knows, I might be a sexual assault victim and don’t feel like being touched. I say that the policy is needlessly invasive and it doesn’t provide any added security.

He asks, “But didn’t you go through this when you left on your flight?”

“Yes,” I say, grinning, “But I didn’t want to miss my flight then.”

The cops leave, and I stand around and wait some more. It should be noted that throughout this time, no fewer than 10 TSA officers and technicians are standing around, watching me. I was literally the only one still waiting to go through security.

The cops, The TSA Supervisor, and another guy were standing behind the checkpoint deliberating about something. I explained this to my iPhone and The Supervisor shouted, “Does that thing have video?”

“No sir. Just audio.” I was telling the truth – I’m still on an iPhone 3G.

After a while, Young Cop comes and asks me for my papers. My passport, my boarding pass, my driver’s license, and even a business card. I give him everything except the business card. He told me that he was just gathering information for the police report, which is standard procedure. I complied – I knew that this was indeed standard.

He left, and a Delta Airlines manager comes over and starts talking to me. He is clearly acting as a mediator. He asks what I would consent to, if given my options. I explain that I want the least intrusive possible solution that is required. I say, “I will not do anything that is not explicitly stated on recording as mandatory.” He leaves.

Let me pause and clarify the actors’ moods here, because they will soon start to change:

* The Supervisor: Very standoffish. Sticking to policy, no exceptions.
* The TSA Officials: Mainly amused. Not very concerned otherwise.
* The Cops: Impartial observers and consultants. Possibly a bit frustrated that I’m creating the troubles, but being very professional and respectful regardless.
* The Delta Supervisor: Trying to help me see the light. He doesn’t mind the work - he’s here all day anyway, so he’d rather spend it ensuring that his customer is happy.

After another wait, Old Cop returns, and asks me what I want. I tell him, “I want to go home without going through the Backscatter and without having my genitals touched. Those are my only two conditions. I will strip naked here if that is what it takes, but I don’t want to be touched.”

He offers as an alternative, “What if we were to escort you out with us? It would involve a pat-down, but it would be us doing it instead.”

“Would you touch my balls?”

“I don’t want to touch your – genital region, but my hand might brush against it.”

I clarify, “Well, like I said, I’ll do whatever you say is mandatory. If you tell me that you have to touch my balls—“

“—I said no such thing. You’re putting words in my mouth.”

“OK. I apologize. If you say that a pat-down is mandatory, and that as a condition of that pat-down, I may have my genitals brushed against by your hand, even though you don’t want to, I will do that. But only if you say it is mandatory.”

“I’m not going to say that.”

“OK. So am I free to go?”

“You are free to go in that direction.” He points back towards customs. Then he walks away to commune with the others.

My iPhone is running out of battery, so I take out my laptop, sit in a corner, and plug it in. I have some work to do anyway, so I pull up Excel and start chugging away for about 20 minutes.

This is where the turning point happens.

The cops come back and start talking with me. Again, they are asking why I’m doing it, don’t I have a connection to make, etc. They are acting more curious at this point – no longer trying to find a contradiction in my logic.

I eventually ask what would happen if I got up and left, and just walked through security. They shrugged. “We wouldn’t do anything on our own. We are only acting on behalf of the TSA. They are in charge of this area.”

“So if he told you to arrest me, you would? And if he didn’t, you wouldn’t?”

“That’s right,” Young Cop says.

“OK well then I think it is best if we all talk together as a group now. Can you call them over?”

The Supervisor returns, along with the Delta Manager. The Supervisor is quite visibly frustrated.

I explain, “The police have explained to me that it is your call on whether or not I am being detained. If I walked through that metal detector right now, you would have to ask them to arrest me in order for them to do anything.”

He starts to defer responsibility to the officers. They emphasize that no – they have no issue with me and they are only acting on his behalf. It is his jurisdiction. It is policy. They won’t detain me unless he tells them to.

So I emphasize the iPhone again, and ask,” So, if I were to get up, walk through the metal detector, and not have it go off, would you still have them arrest me?”

The Supervisor answers, “I can’t answer that question. That is no longer an option because you were selected for the Backscatter.”

“Well you can answer the question because it is a yes or no question. If I got up and left, would you have them arrest me?”

“I can’t answer that question.”

The moods have changed. The cops are now frustrated with him because he’s pawning off his decision-making responsibility to them. He’s stopping what is clearly a logical solution to the problem. Meanwhile, the Supervisor is just growing more and more furious with me.

In another deferment of responsibility (which he probably thought was an intimidation factor), “Well then I guess I’m just going to have to call the FSD.”

Unfazed, I ask, “What’s the FSD?”

“The Federal Security Director.” And he walks away.

I can see him talking on the phone to the FSD – a man apparently named Paul – and I can only catch parts of the conversation:

* “No, he’s been perfectly polite…”
* “We tried that…”
* “All he said was … Constitutional rights”

He walks over to Old Cop and hands him the phone. I can hear similar sound bites. They hang up, deliberate some more, and then wait some more.

Meanwhile, I’m typing away on my computer. Answering emails, working on my Excel model – things that I would have done at home regardless.

The Supervisor walks over and stands uncomfortably close to me. After typing for a bit more, I look up. His voice shakes, “I don’t know if I ever introduced myself.” He pulls out his badge. “My name is XXX XXX. Here is my badge. Now, I’ve shown you my credentials.”

Ah – he’s gotten the Miranda talk. I hide my smile.

“Here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to escort you out of the terminal to the public area. You are to stay with me at all times. Do you understand?”

“Will I be touched?”

“I can’t guarantee that, but I am going to escort you out.”

“OK. I will do this. But I will restate that I still do not give you permission to touch my genitals or the surrounding area. If you do, I will still consider it assault.”

“I understand.”

And then came the most ridiculous scene of which I’ve ever been a part. I gather my things – jacket, scarf, hat, briefcase, chocolates. We walk over to the staff entrance and he scans his badge to let me through. We walk down the long hallway that led back to the baggage claim area. We skip the escalators and moving walkways. As we walk, there are TSA officials stationed at apparent checkpoints along the route. As we pass them, they form part of the circle that is around me. By the end of the walk, I count 13 TSA officials and 2 uniformed police officers forming a circle around me. We reach the baggage claim area, and everyone stops at the orange line. The Supervisor grunts, “Have a nice day,” and leaves.

In order to enter the USA, I was never touched, I was never “Backscatted,” and I was never metal detected. In the end, it took 2.5 hours, but I proved that it is possible. I’m looking forward to my next flight on Wednesday.
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Another interesting story
 
Shrug, I had a great time when I landed in Cincinnati airport. The majority of the TSA were nice chaps. Two stood and had a long conversation with us about their rubbish beer whilst we waited in line to show ID.

Interesting story, however... but I'd rather the backscatter or pat down than waste 2.5hours of my life.
 
rypt said:
Another interesting story
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ahahaha, probably the best story I've read about this yet. Good on him for standing his ground.

I disagree with the full body scanners/pat-downs, but when you are in a hurry to catch a plane somewhere, you just comply. That doesn't make it right though. I also booked a flight with Ryanair out of LGW recently, one of their terms and conditions says that I have to comply with any security screening process before boarding. That shouldn't be a problem, I don't think LGW have introduced these scanners yet, nor do they have TSA-style pat-downs.

The Americans are just citing the 4th amendment, and they have every right to. In fact, I'm surprised it has taken this long.
 
rypt said:
Another interesting story
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Hahah skills.

I don't have an issue with the TSA TBH. I just play by the rules and remember to say sir, as they scare me!
Though last time I flew into JFK I was taken off to a room, sat down for 20 minutes waiting whilst some dudes on computers typed in some stuff, and then sent on my way. I assume it was random, though I swear I was the only white face sat waiting in that room!


Dad had a funny one at Bristol Airport a few weeks ago. (Bear in mind that whilst I'm a filthy student and probably look dodge, he's a smartly dressed company director with eleventy million stamps in his passport travelling with one of his consultants). Jumped up girl doing the handluggage scanning took offence to his pen/stylus/laser pointer in his laptop bag. Wouldn't let him take it through as he could "use it to blind the pilot". The pilot that's at the front of the plan behind the big sealed door. Right....
Funny how TSA, the german lot, the dutch lot, the norwegian lot, the saudi lot etc etc etc have never batted an eyelid with that in his laptop bag. It's not as if a Businessman having a laptop, usb memory stick, powerpoint remote, laser pointer is extraordinary is it! But Tracy at Bristol Aiport has a problem with it for a flight to Glasgow :rolleyes:.
He made her give him a receipt for it though :p.
 
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Let me tell you this, I flew to Pakistan the other week (was a great trip, btw!) and at Heathrow during check-in I had with me 1 luggage for baggage and 1 hand luggage (my camera backpack).

Now, my camera backpack was with me at all times and I was asked if it contained any liquids, I said no but later realised I did have liquids in there (a bottle of eclipse fluid for sensor cleaning).

Anyway...My backpack was put through the xray machine and I walked through the machine. No alarms, no faff.

So why did they not search the backpack at all especially since a bottle of liquid was inside along with various camera lenses and equipment that, under xray, could look suspicious?

I wondered about this and lolled a bit then went on my way to the flight gate.

It seems that they're just needlessly upping the anty in the name of "security" when it's not really secure at all.

This is all confirmed by the recent strip searching of a young boy in front of his father by TSA agents (video on youtube with caption).

Sillyness.
 
What exactly did the guy in the 'interesting story' prove or change or add to the TSA policy? All I can see is a guy wasting several other people's time with no discernible output other than mass frustration.
 
[FnG]magnolia;17860893 said:
What exactly did the guy in the 'interesting story' prove or change or add to the TSA policy? All I can see is a guy wasting several other people's time with no discernible output other than mass frustration.
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You can choose to opt out of the scanner (and only about 1 in 5 are randomly chosen for it) You will then be required to receive the 'enhanced pat down' procedure, which basically involves a full inspection of your body with the front of the agent's hands (as opposed to old policy of back of the hands) It also involves checking to the point of 'testicular resistance' which means getting your balls checked - presumably for a bomb or bag of dynamite.

Women can look forward to their breasts being felt.

Horror stories already emerging include a cancer patient having his **** bag burst, a sexual abuse victim crying through the procedure, a person with a prosthetic limb being forced to remove it, and as mentioned, a young boy being stripped and searched in the airport for all to see.

It's horrendous and needs to be addressed.
 
He isn't the only one to protest though. Plus he set a precedent in that they absolutely insisted he could not leave the airport unless he was either screened or groped, er . . I mean patted down. He eventually left without even going through the metal detector I believe.

So he proved that if other travellers follow his logic they will be able do the same. Not recommended if you're a non US citizen on the way in the the US though :)
 
banja said:
You can choose to opt out of the scanner (and only about 1 in 5 are randomly chosen for it) You will then be required to receive the 'enhanced pat down' procedure, which basically involves a full inspection of your body with the front of the agent's hands (as opposed to old policy of back of the hands) It also involves checking to the point of 'testicular resistance' which means getting your balls checked - presumably for a bomb or bag of dynamite.

Women can look forward to their breasts being felt.

Horror stories already emerging include a cancer patient having his p*ss bag burst, a sexual abuse victim crying through the procedure, a person with a prosthetic limb being forced to remove it, and as mentioned, a young boy being stripped and searched in the airport for all to see.

It's horrendous and needs to be addressed.
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So, you are only subjected to the "physical abuse" if you reject the body scanner? So what's the problem? Sounds like you got something to hide.

The bodyscanner doesn't take long and is hardly invasive. I mean seriously, if I get asked to be scanned when I head to Vegas in March, I will just do it to get through the damn airport ASAP so I can get to my casino.

I just don't see the problem?:confused:
 
Lodgeinator said:
Unknown health risks, there have not been enough tests on the body scanner.
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and apparently eating bacon gives you cancer.

I also drive many thousands of miles a year and am diabetic with blood pressure problems.

I also own a mobile phone! Good god!

Might just commit suicide right now, because I've got no chance.

:rolleyes:
 
Humourless ****s anyway, passing through Logan Airport to see my girlfriend and the guy starts asking me questions about where we met, and when I said while she was studying in Europe, he asked did she enjoy it.

"She got me, didn't she?"

Not even a look up. :(

Khaaan! said:
Let me tell you this, I flew to Pakistan the other week (was a great trip, btw!) and at Heathrow during check-in I had with me 1 luggage for baggage and 1 hand luggage (my camera backpack).

Now, my camera backpack was with me at all times and I was asked if it contained any liquids, I said no but later realised I did have liquids in there (a bottle of eclipse fluid for sensor cleaning).

Anyway...My backpack was put through the xray machine and I walked through the machine. No alarms, no faff.

So why did they not search the backpack at all especially since a bottle of liquid was inside along with various camera lenses and equipment that, under xray, could look suspicious?

I wondered about this and lolled a bit then went on my way to the flight gate.

It seems that they're just needlessly upping the anty in the name of "security" when it's not really secure at all.

This is all confirmed by the recent strip searching of a young boy in front of his father by TSA agents (video on youtube with caption).

Sillyness.
Click to expand...
Must be triggered by a certain volume of water. I had a fairly small bottle of chocolate sauce in my bag and it kept setting the scanner off. I honestly forgot it was in there so it got a bit embarassing when he pulled that out.
 
[SKR]Phoenix;17862781 said:
So, you are only subjected to the "physical abuse" if you reject the body scanner? So what's the problem? Sounds like you got something to hide.

The bodyscanner doesn't take long and is hardly invasive. I mean seriously, if I get asked to be scanned when I head to Vegas in March, I will just do it to get through the damn airport ASAP so I can get to my casino.

I just don't see the problem?:confused:
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The problem is at least partly, iirc the body scanners in use have not been independently vetted for safety and there is a very good chance that they will not be maintained properly (there have been cases of x-ray scanner operators at US airports having "clusters" of cancer cases, which have been tracked down to the machines not being maintained properly).
This is rather unlike your mobile phone which will have it's operating standards published, and have been tested by independent labs (often in several separate countries)

So the combination of the scanners not being independently tested for safety, and the known record of some airports at least not checking the equipment for safety is making some people rather nervous about the affects, especially on frequent flyers and the likes of the pilots/cabin crew who will be passing through the machines on a very regular basis.


The biggest problem though, is that the airport security tend to be low paid and extremely poorly trained working by rote.
That's great if all they're expected to do is sort letters, pick tomato, or possibly even work at a checkout*, but appalling when it comes to something where conditions change on a daily basis, and you're dealing with a lot of people with various potential problems etc.

Remember these are people who we are told are there for our safety, yet they are so rigidly following the rules that they'll let anything through that isn't on the list, but take enforcing the list to ludicrous proportions.
The Op's story absolutely enhances the point, they were on an aircraft without having been deboarded since their last very thorough check, with what are to any imbecile clearly weapons (no doubt with the maintenance kits), but they were stopped because one of them had a pair of nail clippers.

Think about it for a moment, the gune even without ammo are still much more of a potential threat normally, let alone if they've got service kits (IIRC many modern rifles etc do have tool storage onboard).

Even ignoring that, there were hundreds of soldiers trained in armed and presumably unarmed combat on board, how much risk would one of them be?

I can sort of understand things like nail clippers in general, as the blades could conceivably be used to damage wiring and start a fire.
But then so could a tie clip, or clip from a pen, let alone any one of several dozen other items people routinely carry, everything from the arm of a pair of glasses, the glass in the glasses etc down to the batteries in a camera or phone**.

A lot of it is "security theatre", responding to previous threats in a manner that is mainly show.



*I suspect many checkout staff get more training and discretion.

**IIRC LiON batteries can be extremely nasty if shorted, remove the short circuit protection from a couple and you've got a potentially nasty fire hazard
 
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