Employment contract change questions
- Thread starter Angilion
- Start date
- Joined
- 5 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 21,063
- Location
- Just to the left of my PC
So why does it say they are doing so?
The way they're implementing it is through the pay rise they agreed to a couple of months ago but haven't implemented. If you want to have the fake consultation, you will be denied the backpay as a penalty and you'll have the changes imposed on you anyway.
That means that in theory the company will from the start of next week have two different sets of pay scales for people doing the same jobs - one set that will never be increased for employees who didn't agree to the changes and one set that is 3% higher now and might get annual increases in the future for those who did agree to the changes.
Which would be odd if it wasn't for the fact that it won't happen. The changes are going to be imposed regardless and anyone who tries to pretend it doesn't apply to them will lose their job sooner or later. It's very hard to prove constructive dismissal if the employer has some patience.
We don't just lack reasonable time to read the contract before having to agree with it. We lack the contract entirely. We haven't seen it. We won't see it until after we've agreed to it.
Going from 1 week in arrears to 4 weeks in arrears means that we are losing 3 weeks pay. We'll get it back when we leave the job. The loss isn't permanent, but it is a real loss. It's inherent in increasing the amount of arrears for pay.
When you can't buy food or pay your rent, it's a real loss.
Well, mine isn't consulting staff and is implementing it all in one go as soon as it is most convenient for it to do so, which will be in January due to Christmas and new year.
It's not that the people making the decisions are being nasty. I realise it's genuinely impossible for wealthy people to understand that if you're on £200 a week then going for 3 weeks without any income is impossible when you will not get that income back untill you leave the job and that even if you can borrow £800 it's a real problem to pay it back, so they genuinely don't understand the degree of impact it will have. After all, if they were to go 3 weeks without income they'd just use a small amount of their spare money or borrow some and pay it back over the next month or two. Different worlds.
That's the problem I have too.
I must admit that I am a little surprised at being told to agree to a contract without even being allowed to see it first. That's a little out of the ordinary.
All well and good, but these changes have already been decided on and I'm loathe to pay for a patronising pretence of consultation.
I don't expect my employers to give a damn about me. They don't know me. They've never met me and almost certainly never will. Payroll is just a cost to them and any given peasant is just a tiny part of that cost. I don't matter to them and I've no need to pretend I do.
Maybe that's why I find all the patronising twaddle about "colleagues" and "consultation" annoying. It's like a feudal duke telling the peasants working in his manors that he is increasing their rents and then calling the peasants his colleagues and the order a consultation.
I'd be less insulted and annoyed by a memo saying "This is roughly what will happen, but we can't be bothered to tell you the details. If you don't like it, go **** a pig."
And no, that is not hyperbole. I am less insulted by honesty than by condescension.
If that actually mattered, they wouldn't be doing it.
I thought that unlikely too, but that's what it says in the couple of pages of largely meaningless twaddle we got to explain the changes that are going to be imposed on us. Of course, what they choose to tell us might or might not be true. On one page, you have an option to agree to both changes or reject them both, but on the next page it says that the change to 4-weekly pay will be imposed on all employees in January (i.e. the first pay cycle after the Christmas holidays for payroll staff). It's also stated what the official penalties for rejecting the change are - the loss of two days pay and no chance of a pay rise ever again unless your pay drops below minimum wage. Unofficially, of course, you'll lose your job sooner or later. Don't want any unco-operative peasants around.
How am I going to afford legal advice and the loss of my job? I can't afford to bet that much on the possibility of maybe winning some sort of payoff in a tribunal at some point in the future, possibly.
If I mention that, I may be sacked.
And yes, I am serious about that. I've had that memo as well - any comment made anywhere on line and which allows anyone to identify the company (even if it does not name the company) and which is not complimentary to the company (even if it is true) is considered gross misconduct and may result in dismissal.
Last edited:
- Joined
- 5 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 21,063
- Location
- Just to the left of my PC
While this side issue is interesting, I'd like to know if anyone has any answer to the question I asked. After all, I don't have much time.
This is my question:
The contract is changed.
I'd like to have some idea of how bad my employer can make my life under the new conditions. Hence my question.
This is my question:
Telling me that my employers can't change the contract in the first place doesn't help because it isn't true. Oh, it might be theoretically true, but it isn't really true.
The contract is changed.
I'd like to have some idea of how bad my employer can make my life under the new conditions. Hence my question.
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 27 Sep 2004
- Posts
- 25,821
- Location
- Glasgow
I'd be rather interested to see what happens if you did accept the contractual terms as changed, I'm not really certain it would significantly affect your position should it come down to a tribunal as here you've got bullying, a major disparity in positions of power, inadequate time to peruse the changes and in fact haven't yet seen the contract. Generally speaking while an acceptance of terms implies consent if it is not something that you've had a chance to allow yourself informed consent but have instead been effectively forced into acceptance through threats against your job/person etc then I'd argue the acceptance given is meaningless - I wouldn't be completely surprised if an employment tribunal saw it the same way as they usually take a view that is more favourable to the employee based often on the disaparity in negotiating power.
However with that being said this argument would only last for a relatively short length of time (weeks possibly if that) as you'd need time to consult with legally trained persons before raising a claim - at which point you'd probably be claiming coercion to accept unfair changes to your contract. If you left it for any significant length of time then you'd be deemed to have accepted the changes.
However with that being said this argument would only last for a relatively short length of time (weeks possibly if that) as you'd need time to consult with legally trained persons before raising a claim - at which point you'd probably be claiming coercion to accept unfair changes to your contract. If you left it for any significant length of time then you'd be deemed to have accepted the changes.
Contact ACAS, they are there to help wih cases like this
Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service)
Contact point Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) Address Euston Tower
286 Euston Road
London
NW1 3JJ Phone number Helpline
08457 474 747
Switchboard 020 7210 3613
Text phone 08456 06 16 00
Website http://www.acas.org.uk
Opening Hours Monday to Friday 8.00 am to 8.00 pm, Saturday 9.00 am to 1.00 pm (helpline)
Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service)
Contact point Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) Address Euston Tower
286 Euston Road
London
NW1 3JJ Phone number Helpline
08457 474 747
Switchboard 020 7210 3613
Text phone 08456 06 16 00
Website http://www.acas.org.uk
Opening Hours Monday to Friday 8.00 am to 8.00 pm, Saturday 9.00 am to 1.00 pm (helpline)
Easy answer to this, accept what they offer in the short term, find somewhere else to work, because once they start going down this road there is basically no return, there is no sense of job security and satisfaction from the employees, and certainly no trust in the company.
What they are basically looking to implement is call off working, where they can simply say to you, "no work tommorow, sorry" and you starve that week, while still being under contract to provide labour when they desire it.
Make every endeavor to find alternative employment and write this off as a bad job.
The place I currently work at decided that the bonus system was going to be changed a few months ago, in that one quarter of your "basic" pay before overtime WAS made up what simply called attendence bonus of around £110 a week.
What they decided to do was make it 50% dependent on getting a sales lead that week, another portion on delivery performance, another portion on something else.
Yeah ok whatever, where do I sign, then I went job hunting.
Put my notice in on wednesday when I got the conformation letter from my new company.
"Is there anything we can say to make you stay John?"
"Errrrrrrrrrm, no not really".
What they are basically looking to implement is call off working, where they can simply say to you, "no work tommorow, sorry" and you starve that week, while still being under contract to provide labour when they desire it.
Make every endeavor to find alternative employment and write this off as a bad job.
The place I currently work at decided that the bonus system was going to be changed a few months ago, in that one quarter of your "basic" pay before overtime WAS made up what simply called attendence bonus of around £110 a week.
What they decided to do was make it 50% dependent on getting a sales lead that week, another portion on delivery performance, another portion on something else.
Yeah ok whatever, where do I sign, then I went job hunting.
Put my notice in on wednesday when I got the conformation letter from my new company.
"Is there anything we can say to make you stay John?"
"Errrrrrrrrrm, no not really".
Last edited:
Deleted member 66701
Deleted member 66701
No it wasn't and I was backed up by a specialist in employment law.
I think you've missed the ironing or aren't aware of my background.
So the solution is to run away? Are we now a nation full of cowards unwilling to fight for our rights?
The more people bow down to this sort of mistreatment at the hands of employers, the more they will implement these kind of draconian working practices and the employment rights that workers have fought so hard for over the last 100yrs will be squandered by the meek among us.
Last edited by a moderator:
they simply cant ask you to agree to a contract without seeing it, plain as any employment judge in the country will hammer them for it on that point alone, put your complaint in writing to your employer and then file with an ET, if your not in a union, check your home insurance etc for legal cover asap!
THIS GET ON THE PHONE TO ACAS NOW!
I'd get more info on that, iirc you should only get 1 week in arrears and then 3 weeks pay after the 4 weeks. This will then leave you 1 week in hand.
Well that's how it works with companies I've worked for paying in every 4 weeks.
Then again thinking about it, it has been a long time, so I'm probably wrong somewhere!
Last edited:
- Joined
- 5 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 21,063
- Location
- Just to the left of my PC
I'd get more info on that, iirc you should only get 1 week in arrears and then 3 weeks pay after the 4 weeks. This will then leave you 1 week in hand.
Well that's how it works with companies I've worked for paying in every 4 weeks.
Then again thinking about it, it has been a long time, so I'm probably wrong somewhere!
They don't have to pay you anything other than wholly in arrears. It's not their problem if you can't buy food, pay your rent or travel to work because they've imposed a change that will leave those staff least able to afford it 3 weeks out of pocket. Granted, many companies try to soften the impact as yours did, but they don't have to.
I'm not so badly hit by this one, because I can borrow the equivalent of 3 weeks pay and I can afford to repay that level of debt, but I know people who can't and don't know what they're going to do.
the problem with answering your original question is that any answer given is meaningless, because your employer is already showing a blatant disregard for the law. if they won't abide by the law regarding consultation and unlawful docking of pay, why would they abide by other employment law if it was relevant?
I would start job hunting, even if you are not planning on objecting to the contract change.
I would start job hunting, even if you are not planning on objecting to the contract change.
There are a number of things you can apply the term "cowardice" to, saying yeah what ever to some ******** who thinks he can walk all over you and showing them you are better than being trodden on by them isnt one of them.
Honestly, it isnt worth wasting your breath or time with this company, just leave them to it.
In my case, I secured another 10k a year, a company car, pension and health care, and a graded position in one of the largest companies in europe.
Or I could have ****ed around wasting my weekends with union meetings and brewing up a lot of bad blood and resenting my employers for the sake of occasionally missing out on a part of my bonus every week, go small man syndrome!
The money isnt the principle, its the fact that the company has already shown its lack of respect for me by even doing it in the first place.
Last edited:
- Joined
- 5 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 21,063
- Location
- Just to the left of my PC
There are causes I am willing to risk my home for. This isn't one of them.
People are still telling me that what has happened can't happen and my employers are not allowed to do what they have already done. That's not particularly helpful.
atpbx's post seems the most realistic to me.
It's possible that the company is simply aquiring more power over us in case it feels like using it, maybe as a more precise weapon against specific employees. Got an employee who inconveniently complains about rights and stuff, or who you just don't like? Just use the new rules to give them horrible shifts, changing all the time and a different number of hours from week to week so they'll never be able to be sure they''ll be able to pay next month's bills. They'll leave sooner or later, probably sooner.
- Joined
- 5 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 21,063
- Location
- Just to the left of my PC
Now there's a good point.
I'm not surprised, as my contracted hours were illegal for yours. Everyone knew, but until recently nobody with the power to set my hours cared. Same thing with some aspects of working conditions.
I was told a while ago by someone far enough up the chain of command to have a good idea what was going on that company policy was to do what they liked and pay off the few people who would probably be able to win a tribunal case. Offer them a year's wages as a payoff if they shut up and get lost - it's a better deal for them than gambling on a tribunal that probably wouldn't award them much more than that even if they did win.
I'm not, because it's pointless to do so and will merely cost me money I can't afford to lose.
I've got 20 years employment, with a pension tied to the company...lots of ties. Also, I like the job. I don't want to move, but I do need to know that I'll have a full week's work every week so that I as much security as is possible when you're on a low income.
Still....better to look now than leave it and at some point in the future have to look in desperation for whatever is available.
actually you were wrong as the chap was paid the correct amount of hours. He was entitled to 16.8 days holiday, he was paid 6.66 hrs which was 1/16.8 of his total holiday allocation of 112 hours for the year. This complies with all statutory requirements.
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Sep 2010
- Posts
- 1,130
- Location
- London
angilion said:
It doesn't work like that. You are currently paid one week in arrears which meant you were paid the following week that you worked.
4 Weekly arrears means that you work 4 weeks then the following week you are paid the 4 weeks you just worked. It is still in arrears as you have worked it already. When you leave you will recieve your final pay in the same way.
You don't work 4 weeks then wait another 4 weeks to get paid, that is 8 weeks in arrears.
