AMD Could Leap Ahead If They Want To

[Richdog]

Yes but the OP is contending that Bulldozer will be a massive success for AMD because of the overclocking. It will be a success if it performs better per £ than Intel at stock. We will still end up buying Intel or AMD based on whether the final clock speed we can get from overclocking and how much it costs, as you say if that's a locked chip that's quicker then that' what we would likey go for.

Yup, I agree with this. Realistically speaking, overclockers are a tiny fragment of the market, and imo will become a dying breed in the next few generations of CPU's... it will get to the point where overclocking is pointless for anything other than a hobby, whereas in the glory days it really made the difference in terms of performance. CPU's and GPU's are now getting so quick that the benefits are negligible, certainly nowhere close to giving anyone a return to the £ for what it costs to do so nowadays.

I some extent I kinda agree with this but . . . if Intel turn their back on the enthusiasts then the enthusiasts will turn their back on Intel . . .

As an enthusiast myself a lot of folk in normal life come to me for buying advice or to get me to build them a PC so if the AMD chips can be clocked and work out more cost effective than whatever Intel if offering then its obvious where my money, my friends money and my clients money is gonna be spent!

I think its almost "Blasphemy" to the original OverClocking Mantra that an enthusiast would pay a substantial premium hardware that can be overclocked? . . . The whole point of the OverClocking scene when I got into it in the 90's was to take a cheaper more affordable product and with skill & knowledge clock it to be faster than a product which sold for hundreds of pounds extra ££££

I know even with current hardware to get the best results we need to spend a little extra on a motherboard with an overclocking friendly BIOS and perhaps some 3rd party cooling but it seems even most basic boards these days include a few OverClocking features and irs quite possible to eeek a bit more performance using even the stock cooling . . .

Anyway I'll keep an open mind and see how things pan out . . . I do think this could all go badly for Intel if they alienate the enthusiast!

I have to respectfully disagree... you're somewhat overstating the overall importance of overclockers on the market. Intel could ban overclocking tommorrow and be almost no worse off than they are today, "enthusiast support" or not. Overclockers are a proverbial thorn in the foot... no longer necessary for brand marketing, and requiring CPU manufacturers to cater to this now near-pointless niche.

AMD are and imo will forever now be playing catchup... the Intel i7 core is just too advanced to compete with, and AMD have nowhere near Intels level of financing to pour into R&D. AMD will become the budget CPU of the future and focus on that segment of the market (and mobile devices) in my opinion.

 

[Zarf]

Sure, AMD could take the lead with enthusiasts, but this market is nothing compared to the OEM market. That's why Intel is happy to restrict overclocking - they don't need enthusiasts.

Just look what happened back in the Athlon / P4 era, AMD had years of dominance and all the enthusiasts used them, but they gained hardly any global market share. Intel had some dodgy business practices going on but that's not going to change ... It's always going to be cheaper for them to settle a court case than let a real competitor emerge.
With their own foundries, massive cash surplus and a significant process tech lead Intel can undercut AMD on price whenever they want to maintain the OEM market.

 

[imb4tman]

I don't think Intel have any intention of stopping over clocking. I reckon the CPU's will be locked down but Intel will charge for a "key" to unlock the multiplier.

Give it a couple of months and I'm sure a work around will be found and it will be back to over clocking Intel chips.

 

[Calabi]

Not if AMD's new stuff overclocks to high heaven. Intel will be left behind. That is my point................If AMD play their cards right they could take the lead.

AMD could see increased chip sales, but also a move by the motherboard manufacturers to produce more boards for AMD systems. After all, what’s the point on producing anything other than a standard motherboard for Sandy Bridge if you can’t overclock it?

Bulldozer is really shaping up to be a very VERY interesting chip, should be quite a lot faster than Phemon's, probably faster than current i7's but not as fast as Sandybridge, however its being rumoured that the design of the Bulldozer, a slightly increased pipeline and 32nm process could mean we're in line for chips that could well launch at 4Ghz stock at the high end and could potentially be looking at 5Ghz overclocks on air.

So Bulldozer could end up faster in the end, on clock speed, with slightly lower IPC, but if you can get a nice 8 core bulldozer that does 5Ghz, and it will cost you £200, well, thats why early on Sandybridge doesn't look particularly appealing right now.

Something seems suspicious here but I cant quite place what.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=17342132&postcount=16

 

[Helios1234]

Lol nice observation there!

 

[Big.Wayne]

Hey Richdog

you're somewhat overstating the overall importance of overclockers on the market.

You mean you "think" I am overstating the importance of overclockers!

Intel could ban overclocking tommorrow and be almost no worse off than they are today, "enthusiast support" or not

Interesting "assumption" . . . I can see how you arrived at this conclusion but I personally don't see it that way myself . . .

If Intel are confident that "enthusiast support" is not important to their sales then I'm pretty sure they will cut out the ability to overclock their products . . . lets see what happens . . . its really beyond debate and the proof will be in the pudding . . .

Overclockers are a proverbial thorn in the foot... no longer necessary for brand marketing, and requiring CPU manufacturers to cater to this now near-pointless niche

Woooh thats pretty powerful stuff there!

Your "thinking" that Intel see's us overclockers as:

• a proverbial thorn in the foot
• no longer necessary for brand marketing
• now near-pointless niche

My gut feeling is if Intel lock-out overclockers and tweakers from using their products it will work against them more than work for them . . . I could be wrong but we will see!

 

[Richdog]

You mean you "think" I am overstating the importance of overclockers!

I think any sensible person would agree that the overclocking market is proportionally insignificant in comparison to their non-overclocking market.

Interesting "assumption" . . . I can see how you arrived at this conclusion but I personally don't see it that way myself . . .

Ok, so explain to me how Intels multi-billion dollar business would be affected in any significant way by overclocking stopping tommorrow.

Woooh thats pretty powerful stuff there!

Your "thinking" that Intel see's us overclockers as:

• a proverbial thorn in the foot
• no longer necessary for brand marketing
• now near-pointless niche

:

What's "powerful" about it? CPU manufacturers ideally don't want you to overclock their products, they want you to have to pay the extra for a faster CPU. That's about as complicated as the logic gets. Intel are only catering to overclockers because there is currently a market of people who will buy those products, but it doesn't really benefit Intel financially or economically in any real way, and realistically has little future as technology advances.

My gut feeling is if Intel lock-out overclockers and tweakers from using their products it will work against them more than work for them . . . I could be wrong but we will see! :cool

To be fair Wayne, and again I mean no disrespect, but in the time i've been here you've often been wrong. You're not thinking about this objectively, you're thinking from the biased perspective of an enthusiast. Hell, I used to be one.

 

[Big.Wayne]

You're not thinking about this objectively

Richdog, maybe without you realising it you have implied I am not a sensible person, who is often wrong, who is biased and who lacks the ability to "think" objectively . . . out of all of those I am peeved the most by you telling me what I am "thinking" . . . tread carefully or you will hurt my feelings!

What's "powerful" about it? CPU manufacturers ideally don't want you to overclock their products?

If your statement was actually what Intel were thinking then I feel "alienated" and wouldn't spend a single penny with a company that didn't understand my needs & wants and make products for me . . . am I the market or am I am single individual? . . . or am I both?

Check out the AMD® Phenom™ II Black Edition . . . a product that ideally AMD® want you to overclock . . .

so explain to me how Intels multi-billion dollar business would be affected in any significant way by overclocking stopping tommorrow

No let me reverse that question and get you to answer instead . .

Tell me . . if us ***********, Tweakers and enthusiast are such an insignificant, meaningless, near-pointless group of buyers why would Intel even consider locking us out? . . . I mean it would seem we are not really doing any harm?

AMD are and imo will forever now be playing catchup...

 

[Richdog]

Richdog, maybe without you realising it you have implied I am not a sensible person, who is often wrong, who is biased and who lacks the ability to "think" objectively . . . out of all of those I am peeved the most by you telling me what I am "thinking" . . . tread carefully or you will hurt my feelings!


If your statement was actually what Intel were thinking then I feel "alienated" and wouldn't spend a single penny with a company that didn't understand my needs & wants and make products for me . . . am I the market or am I am single individual? . . . or am I both?

Check out the AMD® Phenom™ II Black Edition . . . a product that ideally AMD® want you to overclock . . .


No let me reverse that question and get you to answer instead . .

Tell me . . if us ***********, Tweakers and enthusiast are such an insignificant, meaningless, near-pointless group of buyers why would Intel even consider locking us out? . . . I mean it would seem we are not really doing any harm?

I would love to respond to this in detail, but im afraid your slightly haphazard style of writing doesn't always make much sense to me. We'll just agree to disagree as I don't think either of us would be convincing the other of anything.

 

[Big.Wayne]

It's because you can't respond Richdog . . . but your entitled to your "opinion" of the scenario none the less . . . but please don't mistake your opinion for some kinda universal truth because its not!

Your style of writing makes sense to me and I understand your point of view, I just don't think its correct and I don't agree with it! . . . . take care and lets see how this scenario pans out!

 

[dazzerd]

Overclocking is such a small market it'll make no real difference to Intel.

Exactly intel could become oem only and would still dwarf amd sales; if I remember even when intel was stuck with netburst for a couple of years they still out sold AMD.

 

[Big.Wayne]

The reason the AMD chips are popular is because of their value (I think)

I like that!

 

[Richdog]

It's because you can't respond Richdog . . cool:

I did respond... in detail. Your latest post was just a nightmare to read, and having already made my argument, I see no point making the effort to make sense of it when we have both already made our points of view reasonably clear. The difference was my argument was based more on logic than guesswork. But yes, you're right, we will see how it pans out.

 

[Lightnix]

I think whilst overclocking might only be a small part of Intel's overall sales, it'd disproportionately benefit AMD to be able to dominate that entire market as they're a smaller company.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

The whole point of the OverClocking scene when I got into it in the 90's was to take a cheaper more affordable product and with skill & knowledge clock it to be faster than a product which sold for hundreds of pounds extra ££££

To be fair I think this 'Mantra' went out the window when people started overclocking i7-980X and GTX580s.

 

[Richdog]

To be fair I think this 'Mantra' went out the window when people started overclocking i7-980X and GTX580s.

Exactly... it's almost ceased to mean anything significant now... we overclock already blazing fast systems for a few extra unneeded FPS, or to score some really crazy benchmarks. The days of CPU significantly affecting games performance in the way it used to is dwindling as games become more and more GPU dependant. It has turned into an expensive and in my opinion unsustainable enthusiasts hobby, that while fun when you're 'into it', serves little practical use, especially now that CPU and motherboard manufacturers are integrating basic dynamic overclocking features into their software, removing any need for niche technical knowledge of BIOS tweaking etc. Within 10 years it's possible, even likely, that overclocking as we know it will not exist on modern systems.

 

[Big.Wayne]

I did respond... in detail. Your latest post was just a nightmare to read, and having already made my argument

Your arguement is flawed! . . . you have basically stated that Intel are so far ahead in the game that they could stop overclocking tommorow and would be "almost no worse off than they are today" . . . that "Overclockers are a proverbial thorn in the foot" who are "no longer necessary for brand marketing" and who are a "now near-pointless niche"

You seem to not know just how good the latest AMD processors are . . . I supect this is because you haven't used them but that would be an "assumption" on my behalf? . . . You fail to address the reason exactly why that if Intel view OverClockers as a pain in the ass why they are intending to create and market a entire series of products aimed at OverClockers . . . you fail to address the supporting muti Million (Billion) dollar industries that support the OverClocking scene (Heatsinks, Water-Cooling, exotic MotherBoards, Beyond Jedec Speed Memories, etc) . . . and basically do not seem to have the basic grasp of what the "principles" of the OverClocking scene were founded on?

You do not address any of the shady business dealings why in past Intel has had such a tremendous market share which should no longer be possible:

Intel® Settles With the FTC

You do not address the "what if" scenario of an OverClocked AMD® processor being faster and more affordable than a more expensive "Locked" Intel processor and you do not even entertain the notion that future AMD® processor could actually be better performers *and* overclockable than their
Intel® counterparts!

In terms of a Reasoning Process and a Feasibility Study you seem to have made your mind up and set your opinion in stone without really any consideration at all . . . .

Intel® do have some good engineers but for a while know the suits have been paying more attention to their shareholders and less time thinking about what their customers really want . . . most of their products are "massively" overpriced on a price-to-performance ratio but a lot of buyers are not aware of these facts . . . they either succumb to the brand name thing or just ask someone who their consider "knowledgeable" what PC they should buy and the so called "guru" who works for DELL sales for PC world says Intel®

This is all changing as slowly people are waking up from the Intel® "Consensus Trance" and actually seeing that AMD®
are actually producing really good hardware that is selling for a really good price . . . all it will take is a few tier 1 OEMS to back AMD® (which is more likely now the shady dealings have been stamped out by the ITC) and more and more OverClockers/Enthusiasts to find their way into positions of power and use their "objective" buying power to really elavate AMD® . . .

The difference was my argument was based more on logic than guesswork. But yes, you're right, we will see how it pans out.

Your arguement is really weak and narrow sighted . . . you appear to has no real facts at your disposal, heaps of assumption and a general good will towards Intel no matter what they do . . . You like so many non-enthusiasts seem to be ignorant of moden hardware and instead really on branding alone, you also think that because AMD® was behind Intel® in the past they will always be behind AMD®

It almost seems to me like you are building up some kinda "justificaton" for what Intel® "may" be doing with their next gen and preventing Enthusiasts/OverClockers from "tweaking" the hardware to perform better . . . its utterly ridiculous that anyone who understands overclocking would pay a premium for special processors that allow them to overclock . . . and its all because the FatCats want more money . . . its always money and they can never have enough . . . the problem with this is as soon a a company (any company) puts its own needs/wants in front of their customers needs/wants their doomed . . .

If Intel does indeed axe overclocking and continue charging above the going rate premiums for their hardware they are going down . . . . I haven't spent a single penny on Intel for 12 months, nor any of my friends, nor any of my clients from my I.T business thats been running 10 years . . . . every single person who I have switched over to AMD® have been delighted with their system and told their friends . . . All the systems were overclocked/tweaked and all of them were very fast and excellent value for money £££ . . . I'm not just one person . . . there are lots of people like me!

Feel free to stand by Intel® no matter what stunts they pull Richdog, but if you can take anything anway from this discussion let it be this . . . what you believe is the truth and the actual truth are often world apart . . . and to get closer to knowing the truth (about anything) you need to politely discuss things with your fellow forums members and always keeping an open mind!

I'll go on the record now as saying that "if" Intel go ahead and attempt to either destroy the OverClocking culture or "tax" the OverCLocking culture then the Overclocking Culture will backlash and the effect will be more profound that you or the Intel "suits" can possible imagine!

 

[Big.Wayne]

It's almost ceased to mean anything significant now [for me therefore the whole world]... [I used to] overclock already blazing fast systems for a few extra unneeded FPS [So anyone buying a PC must game like me], or to score some really crazy benchmarks[And the benchmarking scene is dead now I no longer benchmark]. The days of CPU significantly affecting games performance in the way it used to is dwindling as games become more and more GPU dependant [therefore I conclude that Overclocking is dead because games don't need it]. [for me personally] It has turned into an expensive and in my opinion unsustainable enthusiasts hobby, that while fun when you're 'into it', serves little practical use [apart from saving you money by not buying more expensive processors and getting your CPU intensive Media/scientific work completed quicker], especially now that CPU and motherboard manufacturers are integrating basic dynamic overclocking features into their software, removing any need for niche technical knowledge of BIOS tweaking etc [although having said that I suppose an automated overclocking system still costs more and cant currently compete with a human overclocker]. Within 10 years it's possible, even likely, that overclocking as we know it will not exist on modern systems [even though I just said that the computer could overclock itself, what I meant to say was there may be no need for a human overclocker]

Me, My World & I

What we have here folks is a classic case of a jaded" ex overclocker who thinks he knows it all . . . he is bored with OverClocking therefore concludes that everyone else should be bored with overclocking and its Ok if overclocking is scrapped or that its ok for new overclockers to be "taxed"

This is not "objective" thinking really!

 

[Mr. May2]

Your arguement is flawed! . . . you have basically stated that Intel are so far ahead in the game that they could stop overclocking tommorow and would be "almost no worse off than they are today" . . . that "Overclockers are a proverbial thorn in the foot" who are "no longer necessary for brand marketing" and who are a "now near-pointless niche"

You seem to not know just how good the latest AMD processors are . . . I supect this is because you haven't used them but that would be an "assumption" on my behalf? . . . You fail to address the reason exactly why that if Intel view OverClockers as a pain in the ass why they are intending to create and market a entire series of products aimed at OverClockers . . . you fail to address the supporting muti Million (Billion) dollar industries that support the OverClocking scene (Heatsinks, Water-Cooling, exotic MotherBoards, Beyond Jedec Speed Memories, etc) . . . and basically do not seem to have the basic grasp of what the "principles" of the OverClocking scene were founded on?

You do not address any of the shady business dealings why in past Intel has had such a tremendous market share which should no longer be possible:

Intel® Settles With the FTC

You do not address the "what if" scenario of an OverClocked AMD® processor being faster and more affordable than a more expensive "Locked" Intel processor and you do not even entertain the notion that future AMD® processor could actually be better performers *and* overclockable than their
Intel® counterparts!

In terms of a Reasoning Process and a Feasibility Study you seem to have made your mind up and set your opinion in stone without really any consideration at all . . . .

Intel® do have some good engineers but for a while know the suits have been paying more attention to their shareholders and less time thinking about what their customers really want . . . most of their products are "massively" overpriced on a price-to-performance ratio but a lot of buyers are not aware of these facts . . . they either succumb to the brand name thing or just ask someone who their consider "knowledgeable" what PC they should buy and the so called "guru" who works for DELL sales for PC world says Intel®

This is all changing as slowly people are waking up from the Intel® "Consensus Trance" and actually seeing that AMD®
are actually producing really good hardware that is selling for a really good price . . . all it will take is a few tier 1 OEMS to back AMD® (which is more likely now the shady dealings have been stamped out by the ITC) and more and more OverClockers/Enthusiasts to find their way into positions of power and use their "objective" buying power to really elavate AMD® . . .


Your arguement is really weak and narrow sighted . . . you appear to has no real facts at your disposal, heaps of assumption and a general good will towards Intel no matter what they do . . . You like so many non-enthusiasts seem to be ignorant of moden hardware and instead really on branding alone, you also think that because AMD® was behind Intel® in the past they will always be behind AMD®

It almost seems to me like you are building up some kinda "justificaton" for what Intel® "may" be doing with their next gen and preventing Enthusiasts/OverClockers from "tweaking" the hardware to perform better . . . its utterly ridiculous that anyone who understands overclocking would pay a premium for special processors that allow them to overclock . . . and its all because the FatCats want more money . . . its always money and they can never have enough . . . the problem with this is as soon a a company (any company) puts its own needs/wants in front of their customers needs/wants their doomed . . .

If Intel does indeed axe overclocking and continue charging above the going rate premiums for their hardware they are going down . . . . I haven't spent a single penny on Intel for 12 months, nor any of my friends, nor any of my clients from my I.T business thats been running 10 years . . . . every single person who I have switched over to AMD® have been delighted with their system and told their friends . . . All the systems were overclocked/tweaked and all of them were very fast and excellent value for money £££ . . . I'm not just one person . . . there are lots of people like me!

Feel free to stand by Intel® no matter what stunts they pull Richdog, but if you can take anything anway from this discussion let it be this . . . what you believe is the truth and the actual truth are often world apart . . . and to get closer to knowing the truth (about anything) you need to politely discuss things with your fellow forums members and always keeping an open mind!

I'll go on the record now as saying that "if" Intel go ahead and attempt to either destroy the OverClocking culture or "tax" the OverCLocking culture then the Overclocking Culture will backlash and the effect will be more profound that you or the Intel "suits" can possible imagine!

this sounds like its the start of a rebellion which will consum the world as we know it

but +1 for big wayne and as he says the proof will be in the pudding we will all be smart arse's after like i told you so but till then its all opinions and bias statments/reviews till we the comsumer gets our hands on this tech nothing is for sure and we all have to take everything with a pinch of salt and see how it fairs on release and then intel can be sent to hell in a handbasket for being greedy just like how nvidia was and we all saw how that got them

 

[Judgeneo]

Good ol' big wayne.

AMD have a chance to steal significant market share from Intel.

Though if AMD really want to compete, they need to start pumping out chips for the laptop market, thats where things are heading at the moment, and thats one area where AMD fail right now. How bulldozer will affect this is anybodies guess.