Career Decisions (IT Professionals please read!)

[UK|AL]

Well the trouble is of course that there isnt a blanket statement we can make thats definitely "right".

It largely comes down to experience, the above is your experiences and you have (quite rightly) formed your opinions from those experiences. I , the other hand , have had almost the opposite experience.

For example, right now I have a work colleague who is consistently (and I mean virtually weekly) banging on about how he should be earning more money, having pay rises etc, because he has a degree. Trouble is that he is absolutely useless at his job, yes he has an IT related degree, but just as with your example he is simply unable to work things out for himself. Worse than that, even after repeatedly being shown what to do he continually forgets how to do it and is even unable to follow documentation that he himself wrote !

Meanwhile, another colleague who left school at 16 (no A levels or degree), and has been in the job now for 4 years is extremely adept at his job, picks up new ideas, methods and concepts very well indeed and should he decide to continue in this career will , I have no doubt, progress very far indeed.

So it largely depends upon experiences and of course those will be different from person to person. I certainly agree with some people that quite often a degree isnt needed, though it can be a help...in the right person. Clearly the individual I mentioned above though simply thinks that because he has a degree he should get more than his peers who dont.

(EDIT : I forgot, it wasnt fair to mention that the other colleague has been in the job for 4 years without specifying the time that the first individual has been in the job for. The two of them started 1 week apart, (the non-degree person started 1 week earlier than the guy with the degree), so 4 years for both of them.)

To be honest i find a lot of people who do I.T Degrees are people who could not do Computer Science or Computer Engineering degrees. It's often the case at our university, can't work out how a red-black tree balances? You get recommended to take a I.T degree.

 

[Ev0]

snip

Exactly! There is no right or wrong answer, which is why it's annoying whenever it gets brought up here

Also I will say that for me it doesn't necessarily have to be an IT degree for an IT job, most of the people I know with degrees, whilst usually being science/technology based, are not generally in comp sci.

But think that's due to me mostly dealing with non development types where comp sci is more relevant imho.

 

[LordSplodge]

Public sector? Pm? Did you do prince2? Worth it?

Doing PRINCE2.

I'm new to Project Management so am currently learning all the pitfalls.

Oh and I'm amused that this thread is turning into the degree/no degree needed argument. I know people without earning 100k+ and those with earning 22k. Yeah in some IT careers it may be a must have but it is not the be and end all some people make it out to be...

 

[dowie]

(EDIT : I forgot, it wasnt fair to mention that the other colleague has been in the job for 4 years without specifying the time that the first individual has been in the job for. The two of them started 1 week apart, (the non-degree person started 1 week earlier than the guy with the degree), so 4 years for both of them.)

The fact that he's moaning about pay every week but hasn't managed to leave the company for a better paid position in 4 years would indicate that no-one else out there wants to hire him.

Not too surprising then I guess - a grad who couldn't get a grad role to start with and can't get a job anywhere else after 4 years probably wasn't exactly great to begin with. This isn't so much an argument against degrees more a worrying indication that your company has hired someone that no-one else will touch.

 

[Tombstone]

The fact that he's moaning about pay every week but hasn't managed to leave the company for a better paid position in 4 years would indicate that no-one else out there wants to hire him.

Not too surprising then I guess - a grad who couldn't get a grad role to start with and can't get a job anywhere else after 4 years probably wasn't exactly great to begin with. This isn't so much an argument against degrees more a worrying indication that your company has hired someone that no-one else will touch.

As far as I'm aware he hasnt ever looked at moving to a better paid position, which perhaps indicates that he is aware of his abilities (although to talk to him you wouldnt know it, as he is adamant that he is some kind of IT god and should benefit from such) and considers the position he is in to be quite a cushy one given the circumstances

On the hiring side of things, I believe that he pulled off quite an impressive interview which would maybe explain why he was initially hired. We've all been there I suppose, batted above our average in an interview and done a Derren Brown

 

[dowie]

As far as I'm aware he hasnt ever looked at moving to a better paid position, which perhaps indicates that he is aware of his abilities (although to talk to him you wouldnt know it, as he is adamant that he is some kind of IT god and should benefit from such) and considers the position he is in to be quite a cushy one given the circumstances

There isn't any reason for you or anyone else to know he's applied anywhere else unless he's successful and hands in his notice.

If someone was moaning about pay every week and had been there 4 years then they'll likely have looked elsewhere. If they haven't then I'd be even more worried about them as a person.

btw.. I do agree with you, in situations like this a 'degree' in itself doesn't mean anything however we are presumably talking about a role that doesn't generally require one in the first place.

 

[Tombstone]

btw.. I do agree with you, in situations like this a 'degree' in itself doesn't mean anything however we are presumably talking about a role that doesn't generally require one in the first place.

Indeed, the position doesnt require one. Its one of those positions where its a help if you have one but nobody is going to bin your application if you havent.

Which I suppose in a way only serves to further highlight the individual, in that he has taken the time and so forth to get the degree, only to end up in a position that doesnt require it anyway and is not good enough at what he does to actually get a position (if we assume he has applied elsewhere) that requires the degree he has.

 

[Blackhawk47]

Don't go to uni and dont get into a help desk role. Prefer project work myself but limit to just directly IT. I started in a small computer shop but quickly grew tired. Got a contract job in a telecoms role working on rail projects, followed by another role doing same at a different company and right now working at a bank on a project.

Don't limit yourself when looking for job when starting off, learn to drive and don't focus on just support or just permanent roles.

 

[Morba]

When starting out, you don't get contract work, you get temp work. The 2 are completely different

 

[Tetsujin]

I normally hold that experience trumps a degree, but as has been pointed out it's about as grey an area as you could ever get.

I will say that experience teaches you things that a degree just can't, insofar as real world development (unless you're in a large enough firm) doesn't necessarily run to the same methodologies as universities teach, and there are a lot of little intricacies and "gotchas" that you can only pick up by being there.

The flipside is probably that if you're going into a small enough niche where experience is hard to come by, the only route may well be a degree. Oh and:

Job Title/Description: In charge of development/planning of technical stuff in a small group of people who create web-based business startups type thing

Typical day-to-day work: Can range from planning out the data schema or general business process for a new business to actually creating stuff in php/mysql/html/css/jquery/fiddling with httpd.conf/anything web-related to educating clients as to the joy of the F5 key.

Highest qualification (GCSE/Diploma etc): Degree (only a Third though, or maybe a 2:2 idk; got bored and stopped paying attention) in Computer Science with Software Engineering, the only portion of which that was useful was a second year SQL course. Didn't cover web development at all, taught myself that in my spare time

Job satisifaction (do you enjoy your day-to-day work): Hell yes, but as you might expect in a startup environment things can be stressful

Job security(do you feel you are at risk of having your job outsourced to india?): Pretty secure

Salary(optional): Lower than the highest I've seen in this thread but higher than the mean

 

[Blackhawk47]

When starting out, you don't get contract work, you get temp work. The 2 are completely different

You can. Look for positions 3-6 months long, contract/temp, end result is the same.

 

[Ev0]

end result is the same.

But the pay generally isn't

 

[HangTime]

Job Title/Description: Business Consultant

Typical day-to-day work: Analysing stats, building solutions (data modelling/ETL/SQL), client workshops, managing implementations, requirements gathering

Highest qualification (GCSE/Diploma etc): BSc Economics & Maths

Job satisifaction (do you enjoy your day-to-day work): Not particularly of late although it can be rewarding

Job security(do you feel you are at risk of having your job outsourced to india?): Good, but past experience tells me that just because it would be illogical to outsource my job, doesn't mean to say it wouldn't be attempted (Norwich Union tried and failed to do it in the past).

Salary(optional): higher than the national average but lower than high tax bracket


As far as the qualifications vs experience argument goes, one thing to bear in mind is that they aren't the only two things people need to do a job. There is also just 'ability', albeit that is quite hard to measure and qualifications and experience are used as a bit of a proxy.

Neither qualifications nor experience got me a job in IT, it was more a question of people seeing what I was capable of while at a previous employer so they gave me the job.

 

[Vanilla]

Job Title/Description: Senior Technology Consultant

Typical day-to-day work: I work with the sales team to drive sales. I'm the principle technical contact for a number of large accounts. My day varies greatly, one day I may be on site all day with the techies, the next presenting to senior management and one day even just at home catching up on email and admin.

Highest qualification (GCSE/Diploma etc): Degree (2:1, Comp Sci)

Job satisifaction (do you enjoy your day-to-day work): High, because it is very varied, i'm pretty much my own boss and because i'm presales I get to go to all the jollies - racing days, dinners, etc.

Job security(do you feel you are at risk of having your job outsourced to india?): No chance. You can't outsource presales

Salary(optional): Very competitive. Bordering on ridiculous

 

[Vanilla]

To be honest i find a lot of people who do I.T Degrees are people who could not do Computer Science or Computer Engineering degrees. It's often the case at our university, can't work out how a red-black tree balances? You get recommended to take a I.T degree.

oooo so not only do we have the 'you need a degree in IT' argument going on we now have the 'Comp Sci / Engineering is the only real |IT degree'

 

[UK|AL]

oooo so not only do we have the 'you need a degree in IT' argument going on we now have the 'Comp Sci / Engineering is the only real |IT degree'

Don't need to argue... However trying to say there big differences in the type of personalities that study different degrees.

Computer Science - Tends to have a lot of maths and computer science theory in it. For example, graph theory for Dijkstra's algorithm(Shortest paths). This may not be related to the practical side of I.T for support but proves they can learn the more theoretical stuff.

 

[Blackhawk47]

But the pay generally isn't

Not to begin with but the OP is 16 at the moment. I was 16 and got work experience in a large company which gives a chance to see what the corporate world is like. I was only helping out the admin staff but you get to know everyone in the office etc and you can add it to your cv which will make you appear hard working when applying for your first job. I then got called back a few months later as an assistant design engineer at only £6 an hour. I worked damn hard to improve knowledge on rail.

Going from projec to project assisting more senior engineers you learn a he'll of a lot. I was at £6 p/h for 9 months fly by, at which time I was saving to put money towards the of running a car while I was taking driving lessons (close to taking the test - which I passed before my 18th. Working hard in my job I got a pay rise to £8 ph. I worked there another six months by which time I was 19 but there was a severe lack of new projects. Got made redundant basically but of course was not the only contractor who had to go.

So back to looking for jobs which in the 6 weeks that I was looking was terrible it gets you down. Phone call from one of the contractors at my last saying that the company he was working for a competitor company. He then passed on my cv and a couple of others. Got a telephone interview out of the blue about a month after finishing my last job - which was good as I did tend to get nervous at interviews. At the end of the call I was told that they wanted me (they work on the same projects and needed someone for 2-3 months to meet deadlines) and it lasted for just 7 weeks in the end. However I negoiated what I thought was a good rate for my age baring in mind this new job was 50 hours a week over 5 days and said right I will take the job and asked about pay at which point they £8-10 per hour. For this job I would have to drive to Coventry every Sunday night and back home on Friday night. I pleaded my case as while I was just staying with friends, i needed to pay some rent for a room, petrol, meals etc. Got call back next day from my agency saying they agreed to £12 p/h. I was taking home £500 a week after tax/ni. A good experience, good money and good fir my cv but travelling was hard, the hours were long and definitely not something you can keep up for a long period of time. And then out of work for another six weeks or so before starting my current contract job (two weeks ago) with a bank working on completely different kind of project at £10 per hour but it is only 6 miles from home so I am enjoying it more than my last job.

Man, I've waffled, oh well, I think I'm doing well for my age and IMO employment>work experience>qualifications. Even more so for the IT world and that's what I did at college thinking I would get a job in that sector.

 

[Ev0]

I'm not doubting anything you've done at all, it's all good, was just agreeing with Morba that a contractor and a temp are different things really. And one of those differences is generally the level of pay.

The way you started is a good way to go, but not what I'd label as contracting as such.

 

[Throrik]

Job Title/Description: Apprentice Software Developer

Typical day-to-day work: .NET Development, SQL, PHP/MySQL Development, Support & Client-side Web Development.

Highest qualification (GCSE/Diploma etc): BTEC First Diploma.

Job satisifaction (do you enjoy your day-to-day work): Yes it's very varied.

Job security(do you feel you are at risk of having your job outsourced to india?): 6 month contract with a 2 year renewal if everything goes well.

Salary(optional): £8k but who cares.

 

[LordSplodge]

oooo so not only do we have the 'you need a degree in IT' argument going on we now have the 'Comp Sci / Engineering is the only real |IT degree'

I know. Smelt elitism early in the thread...




I have a Computer Science Degree & I chose the hard modules...