**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Keep coming up against Gold/Silver league players at the moment, I presume that's to determine if I need to be promoted, I am doing alright against the Silvers but tend to get rolled by the Golds.

Nice to know where you belong I suppose.
 
It's mainly ZvT and ZvP, now some of these games I'm losing due to mistakes I've made. But it's incredibly frustrating to outplay someone for 20mins and this one mistake costs you the entire game.

Guess I'm just getting a little annoyed that Terran in particular, can just pressure you so much early game without them facing any real risk. I'd love to be able to try something like that, but even the worst Terran can see that if a Z is 1basing then they're going for a bust. I'm trying to do everything mentioned above, but when someone sticks a few marines around the perimeter of their base then I'm left just guessing what they're going to do.

On the brightside I've won like 14 out of my last 15 ZvZs, and when you do beat someone who has thrown all this pressure at you early it's incredibly satisfying. It's just annoying how easy it can be for a Terran/Toss to get a build order win.

I'll have a look at some replays and post them in a bit.

Edit: Checked a few replays and it seems I just have no idea how I'm doing, I defended a Banshee rush and thought I was in huge trouble but a few mins later I'm miles ahead and could have won but played it safe and gave the game away.

I was in a similar situation with zvp a few weeks ago. I'd be against protoss players who'd get supply blocked, not produce enough probes etc who'd throw down 4 gates and destroy my 14 hatch builds.

My answer? Switch to Protoss :p. This wasn't a 'throwing the toys out of the pram screaming imbalance moment', but I really wanted to see see pvz from their perspective. What made 4 gate so powerful, and why was I getting it so wrong?

Basically I went into every game, regardless of matchup and map, attempting a 4 gate. If it doesn't end the game there and then I expanded and usually went robo (sometimes air if the map suited it better).

Initially I lost a fair few games, given just about my only experience of playing protoss was the campaign :p. After a while though I starting winning A LOT (helped by my losing spree putting me against lower ranked players). There was a period of 2 days where I won something like 14/15 games and lost only 2 or 3. I've never had a win/loss ratio like that. I'm not claiming to be some godly protoss player, in fact I'd still say I'm a better zerg and even then I'm never going to see plat imo. It was clear though that 4 gate is an extremely powerful tactic which didn't require much skill to pull off.

After a while though, people did start to win against me. The best responses to 4 gate came from people who scouted successfully, and then arguably overreacted to the situation. After scouting the 4 gates (I always hid one of them, but he still spotted it) one zerg literally didn't stop producing lings. The end result though was that he could crush any 4 gate push and have total map control afterwards. He could drone up knowing there was nothing I could do, and just mullered me later into the game.

Anyway enough rambling about stuff that doesn't particularly apply. If you have the time switching race can be a really good learning experience :). The only problem is I'm now in a situation where I don't know if I should switch to protoss fully, go back to zerg or learn some terran and go random...
 
...It was clear though that 4 gate is an extremely powerful tactic which didn't require much skill to pull off...


Agreed, it's not difficult to do at all. But it doesnt have to be extremely difficult to defend once it's been scouted. Dont underestimate the effectiveness of spine crawlers. If you can get 3 or 4 behind a few roaches or lings at a choke point at your expansion, they deal heinous amounts of damage (and roaches are basically the best tanking unit in the game).

After a while though, people did start to win against me. The best responses to 4 gate came from people who scouted successfully, and then arguably overreacted to the situation. After scouting the 4 gates (I always hid one of them, but he still spotted it) one zerg literally didn't stop producing lings. The end result though was that he could crush any 4 gate push and have total map control afterwards. He could drone up knowing there was nothing I could do, and just mullered me later into the game.

That'll push you incredibly far ahead. As you said, it's an overreaction. For a zerg to put so many larvae into zerglings will really set them back in economy. I'd probably expand, dump money into sentries and tech to colossi for a timing push while still pushing a chronoboosted economy advantage.

Anyway enough rambling about stuff that doesn't particularly apply. If you have the time switching race can be a really good learning experience :). The only problem is I'm now in a situation where I don't know if I should switch to protoss fully, go back to zerg or learn some terran and go random...

go random! That's basically my plan at this point, although my ranking will probably plummet back to low platinum thanks to terran :D. Will be good to properly learn the matchups.

Plus i'm tired of getting annoyed at how powerful Zerg and Terran are, figure i might as well see what i'm doing wrong :p
 
Agreed, it's not difficult to do at all. But it doesnt have to be extremely difficult to defend once it's been scouted. Dont underestimate the effectiveness of spine crawlers. If you can get 3 or 4 behind a few roaches or lings at a choke point at your expansion, they deal heinous amounts of damage (and roaches are basically the best tanking unit in the game).

My experience of roaches is that you just can't churn out enough to hold off 4 gate pushes. Possibly behind lots of spine crawlers it's doable. I guess it depends on the map too.


That'll push you incredibly far ahead. As you said, it's an overreaction. For a zerg to put so many larvae into zerglings will really set them back in economy. I'd probably expand, dump money into sentries and tech to colossi for a timing push while still pushing a chronoboosted economy advantage.

As I said, by no means am I a good toss :p. It lost me the game, but I guess you are right. I just have an image in my head of the zerg expanding all over the map churning out drones, lose confidence in myself and then just die a horrible death.


go random! That's basically my plan at this point, although my ranking will probably plummet back to low platinum thanks to terran :D. Will be good to properly learn the matchups.

Plus i'm tired of getting annoyed at how powerful Zerg and Terran are, figure i might as well see what i'm doing wrong :p

So tempting, and I love protoss and zerg. The thing is though that terran just strike me as so... dull. A slow crawl across the map with tanks and MM, yawn :p. No doubt it's actually just as interesting as the other two but I just don't like terran's style.
 
just noticed my win loss ratio is 57% :D

getting to the point now where i can macro out pretty fast what i see coming to me in a match.. i played a zerg lastnight on lost temple, it lasted 23 minutes, but everything he chucked at me i just countered with the right units.. (plus getting my micro down too)

in the end he sent everything he had into the front of my base, and did a drop on my base with his overlord but my siege tanks sorted them out.. that was the time to stim all my marines and marauders into his base :D what ever he had pumping out when i arrived was swiftly delt with..

:D
 
I still think it's a little unfair that Terran and Protoss aren't really punished for poor macro, if they don't use their energy they can just spam Mules or Chronoboost, it's not efficient. But as a Zerg missing injects just puts you further and further behind.
 
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don't group protoss into the same boat as terran, according to some research I remember seeing on TL, 1 mule is worth 6 chronoboosts.

Not saying it's not hard for zerg though, you're on a knife's edge all game.
 
I still think it's a little unfair that Terran and Protoss aren't really punished for poor macro, if they don't use their energy they can just spam Mules or Chronoboost, it's not efficient. But as a Zerg missing injects just puts you further and further behind.

That's true, but equally larva stack which gives zerg an incredible advantage when armies hit 200/200.

Furthermore, spamming mules is great up until the point you need scans :p. A terran always has to take this into account. With protoss, chrono thankfully doesn't stack so any missed opportunity to chrono probes means you're economy is at a disadvantage. Yes a protoss can chrono things like tech buildings with spare energy, but in a lot of situations chronoing economy is far better.

don't group protoss into the same boat as terran, according to some research I remember seeing on TL, 1 mule is worth 6 chronoboosts.

Not saying it's not hard for zerg though, you're on a knife's edge all game.

To an extent, although as above mules = no scan, or equally wasted scan = ~300 minerals down the drain. The command centre also needs to be converted into an orbital command so time is lost producing scvs.

I guess what I'm saying is that the grass is always greener. It's very easy to say mechanic 'x' is better or easier than 'y', but I don't think any of them are. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
 
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I still think it's a little unfair that Terran and Protoss aren't really punished for poor macro, if they don't use their energy they can just spam Mules or Chronoboost, it's not efficient. But as a Zerg missing injects just puts you further and further behind.

They are punished. If they got poor macro and my macro is good, who cares if they can make 4/5 mules, ill still be way ahead.
 
don't group protoss into the same boat as terran, according to some research I remember seeing on TL, 1 mule is worth 6 chronoboosts.

Not saying it's not hard for zerg though, you're on a knife's edge all game.

sorry but that's just not true. plus chronoboost can be used on buildings to rush out vital units/tech which is incredibly useful. spawn larvae is something you get used to after a handful of games. it's not hard to remember with just a little bit of practise.
 
sorry but that's just not true. plus chronoboost can be used on buildings to rush out vital units/tech which is incredibly useful. spawn larvae is something you get used to after a handful of games. it's not hard to remember with just a little bit of practise.

Well protoss units have the longest build times anyway...so it's just reducing the disadvantage.
 
Just had a fairly cool game against a silver Zerg, he went ling/roach/hydra, game lasted about 25 minutes and for 20 of those he could have destroyed me, I ended up with 3 bases, he had 2 and was taking a third right at the end, I ended up with a 200/200 force of speed zealots/stalkers/sentry's/immortals/colossus upgraded 2/2/0, yes I know, SO MUCH GAS, however he just....let me, I ended up rolling his army in about 10 seconds and came out with minimal losses, destroyed both his expos and he quit.

I do love it when people sit back and let me macro, Protoss can really dish out the pain in the late game given enough time. I am also starting to adore immortals in the early game, a single immortal has on several occasions now made the difference between a loss sub 10 minutes and a win.
 
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Well protoss units have the longest build times anyway...so it's just reducing the disadvantage.

lol, great logic. shall i tell you want to hear? ok, protoss have it really hard. they can't win anything. it's not like they've won any major tournaments recently or in the latest months figures are positive overall in w/l ratios in every matchup or anything. oh wait.

i guess you didn't consider also that mules make up for lost mining scv build time while spawn larvae system helps make up for actual lost workers for buildings for zerg, whereas protoss have no such lost mining time. or the fact that hey, there might be a reason individual protoss units take longer to build than others so no chronoboost isn't just 'reducing the disadvantage.'
 
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micro your probes a bit and keep chrono'ing stalkers?

alternatively, well, this sounds a lot like 2 gates before cyber rather than 1 gate cyber. in which case there is no reason not to play safe and just match his build. no way you can lose then really, with much faster reinforcements as well. early zealot pressure can be a pain but they are incredibly slow so you should always have enough time to scout and react accordingly.
 
spawn larvae system helps make up for actual lost workers for buildings for zerg,

You seem to think I said zerg was easy...? Which is the polar opposite of what I actually believe.

I was discussing mules vs. chronoboost, and in my humble opinion mules are a stronger resource to have for a variety of reasons, such as:

Mules provide a 90 second massive income boost and if energy is stocked up a large number can be called down to mine from a new base while it still undergoing saturation thus allowing a terran player to instantly receive high income from a base without the need to oversaturate beforehand. This effect is increased even further when the terran player uses the mules on a gold mineral patch.

Mules also don't bounce around mineral patches thus you can have a theoretical infinite number of mules on a single mineral patch thus allowing things like the 4OC build seen on teamliquid where players can make extra orbital commands just for the sake of mules, and these OC's are extremely quickly paid for by the mules.

Mules allow crazy stuff such as the recent uprise in 3 marine scv all-ins, most notable a certain terran player (TSL_Rain) who made it to the ****** final of the GSL by basically doing that every single game of the tournament, and the one time he actually played vs. an opponent who had skill in the matchup he got demolished. Another example of this was the final of the Intel Extreme Masters Cologne where the final was IdrA vs. Morrow (who played terran at the time) and in every game of that final, morrow brought all his scv's to attack with 5 rax reaper, and due to mules still had the capacity to temporarily produce more units.

It is a flawed argument to say that a terran player also has to use scans and supply drop so they can't always have mules, let's look at those one at a time.

Scans: Right, so let's say you don't use scan at all. not once. The only way you can gain information on your opponent is to send units (scv's in the early game) to his ramp, send a flying unit over his base, open your eyes while harassing with one of your many units (vikings, banshee's, raven auto-turret, ghosts, tank drop, thor drop, mm drop.) Now there is, of course, that obstacle of having your opponents army in or around his base so you need to be careful to avoid that with the above mentioned units. But let me ask you, where does this hypothetical situation put you? that's right, in exactly the same boat as the other 2 races.

The need to defend vs. cloaked units (i.e dark templar) can be entirely nullified with a single missile turret, the same way as a photon cannon. If you're scratching your head and wondering how you can have turrets when engaging the opponents army, the solution is easily available. Much like protoss has to build observers for mobile detection, consider investing in a raven. You'll also find that said unit can fly to your opponents base when not in use, and drop turrets for probe harass, or use a hunter seeker missile to destroy large groups of clumped up units.

Should you also happen to be a competent player, you can use them to insanely good potential in nullifying stalker fire, at the simplest form, or go as far as to base entire builds off these units, an example being the polt prime timing attack.

Supply Drop: I really don't have much to say to this, except that any decent terran shouldn't really have to use this unless he has lost a lot of depos for some reason and happens to have some stockpiled energy (which he probably shouldn't.)

Due to the above factors, we can conclude that in regular circumstance, all the energy you have in your orbital commands can go into mules.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok so now let's talk about chronoboost: (i'll keep this short since it's 2:15 am but i'll expand on this later should there be the need.)
  • Costs less energy than a mule
  • Only lasts approx. 20 seconds
  • Nexii have a maximum of 4 chronoboosts (100 energy)
  • The majority of things that chronoboost can be used on require much more than 1 CB to have a decisive effect
  • Proven with experiments and formulae, if specifically used on economy only, 1 mule = 6 chronoboosts
  • chronoboosts does not allow the protoss player to come back from dire situations with lack of workers as mules do
  • while mules can specifically be used on economy the whole terran game, after a point protoss stops using CB on probes

There's probably more but i'll finish this up later.

Last but not least i'd like to draw your attention to this screenshot taken from a Day [9] Daily.

probes.png



I eagerly await your thoughts.

EDIT: Just realised I can show the maths part without needing to find that experiment done on teamliquid and with unit tests etc etc., since it's shown in the screenshot above.

3 Mules = 38 probes
1 Mule ~= 12 probes
1 Chronoboost gives ~=2 probes

therefore 6 Chronoboosts = 12 probes

and by extension, 6 Chronoboosts ~=1 Mule.

Still, i'd advise looking up that thread since it's much better explained with algorithms and the like i'm sure.

Out of curiosity, what league do you play in?
 
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