**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Found the thread, here's a copy:
I'm surprised no-ones done this yet. I recently decided to calculate how ineffective Chronoboost is vs the mule. For the purpose of these calculations a Mule is worth 6 workers which takes into account its ability to ignore a mineral fields saturation combined with its minerals per second income worth of around 4.5 workers.

Heres the calculations so you can see for yourself.

Chronoboost duration = 20 seconds
Chronoboost function = speed up by 50% = divide by 1.5

To find out how much of a benefit Chronoboost should grant something, multiply its duration by its effect. Thus

20*0.5 = 10. A Single Chronoboost over time will equate to 10 seconds of gametime saved. Lets check this is right by working out probe buildtimes.

Probe buildtime = 17 seconds
Chono probe = 11.33333 seconds

To consume a whole chronoboost you need 2 probes, which provided you do a second chrono the moment the first 1 finishes (not possible really, energy is spent faster than gotten) then it would take 22.66666 seconds. However since the last 2.6666 seconds are not chronoboosted we slow it down by 50% (or *1.5) which makes our answer the following.

20+(2.6666*1.5) = 23.999999 or to make things easier, lets just say 24.

A single chronoboost on 2 probes will take 24 seconds, 10 less than other races which holds true to the previous calculations. Since probes take 17 seconds to build that means for every 2 chronoboost used on probes, you have 1 extra out compared to Terran with 3 seconds off the next one.

Since the existence of mules is worth 6 Probes our goal for this set of calculations is to get 6 probes ahead, or to shave off 17*6 seconds, or 102 seconds. This requires 11 Chronoboosts. overall.

Now heres the fun bit.

(25 / 0.5625) * 11 = 488.888889

To get 1 chronoboost worth of energy requires 44.4444444 seconds of gametime, 11 of them requires 489 seconds of gametime or 8 minutes 9 seconds



So there you have it. It takes 8 minutes of pure chornoboosting on the probes to get an economic gain equal to a mule being summoned.


8 Minutes 9 seconds to acquire the chronoboost required to be on par with a mule, 8 minutes 29 seconds to actually have the probes equal to it. If I do the calculations above with scv=5 instead of 6, it is still a whopping 7 minutes.

And yes, once you have an OC provided you *gasp* have macro you can chain mules since their duration is equal to the energy gain rate of an Orbital Command. Mules last 90 seconds and it takes 89 seconds to get 50 energy.

Before anyone bothers trying "but OC costs 150 minerals and we don't start with it!" crap remember this.

--Each probe costs 50 minerals, meaning 5-6 probes extra is 250-300 mineral, 100-150 more than the cost of an OC.
--You can get that OC and plop a mule LONG before the 7 minute mark.
--An extra 5-6 probes requires its own 100 mineral Pylon.
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Spawn larva, chrono boost and mules shouldn't be compared at all. :/

They're all used for completely different things, having them all the same would make them useless.
 
H2F Scott said:
Spawn larva, chrono boost and mules shouldn't be compared at all. :/

They're all used for completely different things, having them all the same would make them useless.
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Spawn larvae I agree since larvae is the entire production for the zerg, but mules are specifically for economy, and when talking about chronoboost in economic situations, to my mind it seems ok to compare.

btw, MBC vs Entus on in a bit, should be good.
 
Garee said:
Usually 2-3 Zealots rush in when I only have 1 stalker out and more re-inforce. I can kite a zealot but the others rush to my mineral line and take out my economy.
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Sounds like a 2 gate or a proxy.

I know this is what everyone says but scouting is all you've got, against protoss keeping a probe alive to scout is pretty easy due to the time it takes to get a stalker, if you see 2 gatways going up wall off at your ramp with a choke and 2 gate yourself, you can easily get enough zealots to defend it due to the run distance he has.

Proxy is kinda the same, you have to either find it or realise that his base is empty meaning he's doing something funky.

If you wait for a stalker against a 2 gate zealot rush, you are likely to get eaten alive.
 
I looked at that threat on team liquid forum, you seem to miss that User was warned for this post, User was temp banned for this post.

Also saw another thread on a decent protoss who actually worked out how much more minerals toss has as an advantage from chrono than terran early game to find that perfect time for a push.

I presume he was warned and banned because he was comparing 2 different mechanics thus it was absolutely pointless what he did.

You can not just compare 2 different mechanics and say 1 is better, even economically for instance a zerg can produce only drones, does that mean zerg has better economy mechanic? Would you rather have the ability to reduce tech or unit time build too or just plain mineral income boost?

The point is as always don't take what random people say on TL to heart.

As to missing mules, you do realise that if one misses the mule then that income is gone form a cycle so that said terran would not be able to produce out of all his structures if he does then summon 4 mules it will give burst of minerals but terran wouldn't have production facilities to spend that burst of income.

Raven argument is a little strange, compare the cost and time to build one and how it will limit other production of vikings/medvacs.

Bottom line, don't try to argue which side is better, chrono/OC/larva they're too different for straight up comparing.

EDIT: This is what administrator Liquid`Nazgul said about the post you quoted.
"This is ridiculous you are comparing two things that if you do compare them shouldn't be compared at all with regard to balance because each function for each race has different worth. Please don't make posts like this in the future."
 
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Minato said:
Spawn larvae I agree since larvae is the entire production for the zerg, but mules are specifically for economy, and when talking about chronoboost in economic situations, to my mind it seems ok to compare.

btw, MBC vs Entus on in a bit, should be good.
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because it is ok in your mind to compare doesn't make it right to do so. they are still completely different mechanics. whilst mules are used solely for economy and to make up for lost mining timing time, choroboost is used for getting out extra workers real fast, workers which meanwhile do not lose the same time as scv's do building, as well rushing fast tech/stengthening timing pushes, getting key upgrades just in time for your push. do mules do anything of this? no. as nerusy says, these are just some of the reasons why it is a stupid comparison and why said thread resulted in a tempa-ban for that user and mods pointing out how misleading and ridiculous a line of thinking that is. my advice to you, take things you read on the internet with a pinch of salt. if you're not on the blizzard balance team or a pro gamer, chances are you're not really in a great position to be commenting on how major and entire game mechanics are completely imba (against your race), and your effort would be better spent on improving your own game rather than qq'ing and demonstrating how you're unable to put down your own loses to anything other than imbalance. now if only a vast majority of sc2 players were able to do this as well. if only.

oh and i am diamond random as you're asking. yourself?
 
just decided to reinstall the game. i have done the terran campaign when i got game at launch, but now would like to play some custom single player missions.

anyone know of a good place to download some? is it even possible with battle net?
 
it's actually called being friendly and not acting like a dick. something which clearly doesn't come easily to you. moronic statements like multiplayer = barracks spam zzzz is bound to encourage tonnes of helpful responses though. :clap:
 
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his actual ban reason was because in his post he was regularly calling "chronoobost crap" and thus asking for a balance/flame war.

Fine, your opinion is that they shouldn't be compared but honestly, just take a look at that picture. Sometimes what they say is very true, and it's definitely worth 1000 words.

Anyways, I won't be posting in this thread anymore, since despite having a flock of v. good friendly players (scott, alex, indie, kar) It also seems to be filled with Terran fanboys that can't admit that their race is basically OP.

Oh btw, for GSL winners, let's take a look at semi-finalists:

GSL 1: Zerg, Terran Terran Terran
GSL 2: Zerg, Terran Terran Terran
GSL 3: Protoss, Terran Terran Terran

Why aren't they winning? Because compared to the winner they are a bunch of nooby little bronze league players relying on their race to carry them through without a real element of skill.
 
because people don't agree that comparing two entirely different game mechanics in the way you are doing makes sense means they are terran fanboys? i play zerg as my main, and random on my second account. but i am sure the more logicial explanation is that every terran so far who has done well in the gsl, who are also mostly ex-sc1 pro gamers, happen to be 'a bunch of nooby bronze league players relying on their race to carry them through.' that sounds about right.
 
I wasn't trying to compare them, I was talking, essentially, about how mules are OP. Which they are. Chronoboost is fine. Inject Larvae eseentially, is fine. Mules, are not fine.

And I said in comparison to the winners. They're obviously better than any of us, but compared to real skilled players, they suck.

I 100% guarantee the first sc2 bonjwa won't be terran.
 
ok, well i guess we will have to agree to disagree. just don't call me a terran fanboy :)

maybe the first bonjwa won't be terran, idk. it's hard to say. it won't be tsl rain that's for sure, lol. but as far as good terran player go; nada, jinro i can see them as well as others great 2011's. i think you'd do well to call them nooby bronze leaguers without an element of skill! at the same time, i can see some of the cheesier, all-in terrans fading away. it's all about the metagame. it will shift, and people will learn to deal with the sort of cheese we've seen doing well in the gsl recently. it doesn't necessarily mean it's overpowered, just powerful in the current state of the game. that's the way things go in rts tho.
 
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Walsandrew said:
it's actually called being friendly and not acting like a dick. something which clearly doesn't come easily to you. moronic statements like multiplayer = barracks spam zzzz is bound to encourage tonnes of helpful responses though. :clap:
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let's recap: i was only asking a question about single player custom missions to which you replied "multiplayer". to whcih i said i wasn't looking for multi since i don't like it. that's my opinion wether you agree i couldn't care less and wasn't the topic anyway. now you insult me.

seriously stay in your hood and off UK forums until you learn some basic manners you hoodlum

go back to compton :p
 
lunarwolf said:
let's recap: i was only asking a question about single player custom missions to which you replied "multiplayer". to whcih i said i wasn't looking for multi since i don't like it. that's my opinion wether you agree i couldn't care less and wasn't the topic anyway. now you insult me.

seriously stay in your hood and off UK forums until you learn some basic manners you hoodlum

go back to compton :p
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oh dear. never have i seen a more ironic sig. :o

recapping we see an innocent and friendly post responded to rudely by you, on which i simply comment on the nature of your reply, as well as the nature of a massive and uninformed generalisation. fyi, if in future you're trying to take some sort of false moral high ground it's better if you don't go onto then issue lots of baseless insults. best leave things there :)
 
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