More book burning..

[RDM]

I cannot understand how you cannot see that burning the Quran (which holds a reverence for a specific group and is a symbol of their faith) in a public place is not going to be offensive to them simply because you make a statement of your personal belief.

I am not arguing that it wouldn't be offensive to them. I am arguing that it wouldn't be inciting hatred against them. Is it illegal to offend someone?

Also stating that being offensive in the way I described regarding the memorial is acceptable (and it was illegal when a student did it not long ago), and equating intentionally inciting a group with the knowledge that the statement you are making is not the words but the offence you know will be made with an acceptable form of political statement is not something I would be happy you teaching my children anymore than I would find an Imam preaching intolerance to them either.

Was he arrested for being offensive or for the fact that he urinated in a public place? Worry not, I will not be teaching your children that free speech is more important than protecting the sensiblities of those easily offended as I would be teaching ICT.

Because burning someone's holy-book or something they hold in reverence with the knowledge that it will cause great offence is exactly that, intolerant and just because some members of the group you are offending are just as offensive of you or even more so, is not reason to be the same.

Indeed it is intolerant and indeed it is offensive, but should it be illegal? Is giving undue protection to an ideology not going to cause even more problems in the long term? Is "not upsetting someone" more important than freedom of speech?

I would rather the teachers of my children taught them to rise above that sort of behaviour.

To be honest with you in full on "Muslim Defender" mode I am sure none of your kid's teachers would dare to suggest that sometimes the right to free speech is more important than offending someone. Shame you don't share the same attitude towards all minorities.

 

[Castiel]

I am not arguing that it wouldn't be offensive to them. I am arguing that it wouldn't be inciting hatred against them. Is it illegal to offend someone?



Was he arrested for being offensive or for the fact that he urinated in a public place? Worry not, I will not be teaching your children that free speech is more important than protecting the sensiblities of those easily offended as I would be teaching ICT.



Indeed it is intolerant and indeed it is offensive, but should it be illegal? Is giving undue protection to an ideology not going to cause even more problems in the long term? Is "not upsetting someone" more important than freedom of speech?



To be honest with you in full on "Muslim Defender" mode I am sure none of your kid's teachers would dare to suggest that sometimes the right to free speech is more important than offending someone. Shame you don't share the same attitude towards all minorities.

You're talking nonsense, I have not said that you are not free to say what you want, in fact I said make the speech...

I'm not a Muslim defender either, unlike most here I actually fought extremism. I am a defender of living in a tolerant society, not creating the antithesis to one like Saudi/Iran/Pakistan, However purposely offending people just because they believe something different from you is not something I can support whatever the religion.

Burning the Quran offends all Muslims, not only those extremists and fools that incite hatred and idiocy themselves. Unless you are stating that all Muslims are inherently evil oppressive wife beating terrorists of course.

 

[Judgeneo]

I remember putting the schools koran and bible on display in the fiction section of the library, was a while until they got moved.

Back on topic, burning should be allowed, of all religious memorabilia

 

[Darkstaruk]

I can't escape Islam I keep getting singlemuslim ads.

 

[RDM]

You're talking nonsense,

Really? Welcome to my read of quite a few of your posts.

I have not said that you are not free to say what you want, in fact I said make the speech...

Yes, but you do think I should be locked up after saying it. Seems that I would be free to do it once....

I'm not a Muslim defender either, unlike most here I actually fought extremism.

So? I know quite a few intolerant people that have fought extremism too.

I am a defender of living in a tolerant society however and purposely offending people just because they believe something different from you is not something I can support whatever the religion.

Shame you don't extend that tolerance to homosexuality...

Burning the Quran offends all Muslims, not only those extremists and fools that incite hatred and idiocy themselves. Unless you are stating that all Muslims are inherrently evil oppressive wife beating terrorists of course.

Yes that is exactly what I am stating! Oh hang on, no I seem to recall specifically mentioning that burning the Koran was crass and offensive. But let's ignore that bit shall we?

 

[Castiel]

Yes, but you do think I should be locked up after saying it. Seems that I would be free to do it once....

No, you should not. What you SAID is not incitement, however the ACT you chose to highlight the speech is.

So? I know quite a few intolerant people that have fought extremism too.

So!, I wasn't referring to intolerance or tolerance, but to you incinuating I only defend muslims. Which is nonsense.

Shame you don't extend that tolerance to homosexuality...

I'm not intolerant of homosexuality, quite the opposite in fact. As I frequently explained in the thread you are referring to. Equality should apply to ALL, not only minorities. If Homosexuals wish to have exclusive hotels then so should heterosexuals, as long as it is regulated so that no group is unfairly disadvantaged. That is not intolerant of anyone.

Yes that is exactly what I am stating! Oh hang on, no I seem to recall specifically mentioning that burning the Koran was crass and offensive. But let's ignore that bit shall we?

I am not ignoring it at all, you are stating that the specific offence is not incitement, I disagree.


The law disagrees with you also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_or_provocation_of_violence

1) A person is guilty of an offence if he -

a) uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or
b) distributes or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.

2) An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is distributed or displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that dwelling.

 

[RDM]

No, you should not. What you SAID is not incitement, however the ACT you chose to highlight the speech is.

My apologies, I should have said freedom of expression. I am still struggling how burning a Koran is incitement to hatred.

So!, I wasn't referring to intolerance or tolerance, but to you incinuating I only defend muslims. Which is nonsense.

You do however seem to be more strident in their defence.

I'm not intolerant of homosexuality, quite the opposite in fact. As I frequently explained in the thread you are referring to. Equality should apply to ALL, not only minorities.

And your proposed method of dealing with it was to allow people to discriminate equally.

I am not ignoring it at all, you are stating that the specific offence is not incitement, I disagree.

So why did you say "Unless you are stating that all Muslims are inherrently evil oppressive wife beating terrorists of course." when it is patently obvious that I don't. Not to mention not all muslims find burning the koran offensive, many will just go "meh, some idiot burning a koran". Unless of course you think all muslims are reactionary idiots?

 

[RDM]

The law disagrees with you also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_or_provocation_of_violence

No it doesn't. How does just burning a book fall under:

with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.

 

[Castiel]

My apologies, I should have said freedom of expression. I am still struggling how burning a Koran is incitement to hatred.

To you and me, it is not. However to many it is.

You do however seem to be more strident in their defence.

It only seems that way due to the amount of vitriol directed at Muslims on this forum. If it were another group then I would probably be accused of favouring those.

And your proposed method of dealing with it was to allow people to discriminate equally.

within a very limited arena and within very strict regulation. I also stated several times the contentious nature of this also. Personally I would like to see all exclusive hotels etc abolished. It was really only a suggestion on how to allow each disparate group their freedom to do as the wished while at the same time not being restricted by discrimination laws. Gay Men want a hotel free of straight guys and gals, I have no objection, the same should be true the other way.

So why did you say "Unless you are stating that all Muslims are inherrently evil oppressive wife beating terrorists of course." when it is patently obvious that I don't. Not to mention not all muslims find burning the koran offensive, many will just go "meh, some idiot burning a koran". Unless of course you think all muslims are reactionary idiots?

Not at all, however Muslims, even moderate ones would find it offensive.

 

[Castiel]

No it doesn't. How does just burning a book fall under:

1) A person is guilty of an offence if he -

a) uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or
b) distributes or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.

2) An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is distributed or displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that dwelling.

The bit in bold.....visible representation, burning a Quran in public is a visible representation that can cause offence and likely to provoke violence.

You burn it in your home in front of a muslim if you want though, or argue that it is a reasonable thing to do (I don't think that will fly though)

This part of the public order act deals with the same things...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_harassment,_alarm_or_distress

I expect setting fires in a public place is illegal also, in the same way as urination is.


But I think we shall have to agree to disagree for the time being as I am very tired and we are in danger of getting vitriolic with each other when that is not my intention.

 

[RDM]

To you and me, it is not. However to many it is.

No, I can see how it would be offensive, but not how it would be incitement to hatred. What is said at the time of the book burning could lead it to be, but the burning itself, no.

It only seems that way due to the amount of vitriol directed at Muslims on this forum. If it were another group then I would probably be accused of favouring those.

I look forward to seeing your strident defense of any other minority group when they get insulted...

Not at all, however Muslims, even moderate ones would find it offensive.

But not all would and seriously, so what? Should being offensive be illegal?

 

[Westyfield2]

I'm pro banning religion, would sort all the issues

Erm, religion has done us quite a lot of good actually!

Who were the abolitionists? Christians....

What were Martin Luther King, Eleanor Roosevelt & Mother Theresa..... Christians.

Whether you're a Christian or not, you have to admit that Jesus' teachings in the Gospels deserve credit.



Christianity ended the practice of feeding condemned criminals to animals as public entertainment, ended the practice of abandoning newborn infants (mainly girls) in trash dumps, built the first public hospitals, preserved Western civilization after the fall of the Roman Empire, prevented Europe from becoming dominated by Islam, gave birth to modern science, established more schools and universities than any other organization, and built the largest charitable institution in the history of mankind.

http://www.byfaith.co.uk/paul200913.htm


But yeah, in rypt's magical land lets just go and ban religion.

 

[Narj]

Erm, religion has done us quite a lot of good actually!

Who were the abolitionists? Christians....

I stopped believing in my imaginary friend up in the sky once I hit about 11 or 12, but I do still live my life by a lot of the guiding Christian principles that I was taught at school. So in that way, I don't think it's a completely bad thing - I try to live a good life without hurting or ****ing on anyone else, but then any civilised society should instill morals into children from an early age regardless.

Religion will never go away. You'll always get groups of people forming who believe in either the same imaginary friend and/or the same principles and attitude towards life. Without Christianity, I daresay a that people would still have clubbed together and taken the cause under their wing.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't think if I was a practicing Christian, I'd find someone burning the Bible that offensive, I'd just think "what an idiot" - just because it offended me I'd not think it should be made illegal. I think the pivot point of this is that some people are unable to be pragmatic and objective about what's essentially an idiot abusing their freedom of speech/expression and so the law is catering for the people who take offence and shout loudest at the expense of freedom.

I remember putting the schools koran and bible on display in the fiction section of the library, was a while until they got moved.

LOL I did that once in a book shop (Waterstone's, I think it was). Childish but I was laughing to myself for hours.

 

[Gackt]

Erm, religion has done us quite a lot of good actually!

Who were the abolitionists? Christians....

What were Martin Luther King, Eleanor Roosevelt & Mother Theresa..... Christians.

Whether you're a Christian or not, you have to admit that Jesus' teachings in the Gospels deserve credit.



Christianity ended the practice of feeding condemned criminals to animals as public entertainment, ended the practice of abandoning newborn infants (mainly girls) in trash dumps, built the first public hospitals, preserved Western civilization after the fall of the Roman Empire, prevented Europe from becoming dominated by Islam, gave birth to modern science, established more schools and universities than any other organization, and built the largest charitable institution in the history of mankind.

http://www.byfaith.co.uk/paul200913.htm


But yeah, in rypt's magical land lets just go and ban religion.

Just because a certain religion may have done some good, it doesn't magically stop the many evils that has been done as a result of it, nor does it mean that we shouldn't move away from it in the future either.

 

[mejinks]

Why is it fine for Muslims to burn a poppy and English Flag as well as effigies of Tony Blair, but not for a Non Muslim to burn a book?

 

[Narj]

Why is it fine for Muslims to burn a poppy and English Flag as well as effigies of Tony Blair, but not for a Non Muslim to burn a book?

Poppies aren't really an icon of an ideology, although yes, burning them would be offensive. If idiots want to burn them and the English flag so that we can see who the crazies are, and so that we can keep a close eye on them, then that's fine as long as this freedom of expression is consistent across the board IMO.

Didn't really want this thread to veer towards exclusive discussion of one group though - muslims aren't the only ones that have burned flags and effigies IIRC.