Urapeeing Union

[Biohazard]

I studied it from an economics perspective and actually when you dig deeper its quite interesting and you can see a lot of the rationale behind remaining in the EU.

From an economics perspective?

Would you elaborate?

 

[Arnie]

Whilst I do not agree with a lot of what Farage spouts, this made me smile when I saw it.

Jesus Christ, that's real? I thought that was from a satire show at first. :/

I'd be more worried about that **** representing us in the EU.

 

[Abraham]

Jesus Christ, that's real? I thought that was from a satire show at first. :/

I'd be more worried about that **** representing us in the EU.

Fortunately he's A representative, not THE, and he's not viewed particularly favourably by the EU either.

 

[Biohazard]

Farage is brilliant

A democratic EU is a misnomer.

Fortunately he's A representative, not THE, and he's not viewed particularly favourably by the EU either.

Oooh I wonder why! LOL

 

[Abraham]

I studied it from an economics perspective and actually when you dig deeper its quite interesting and you can see a lot of the rationale behind remaining in the EU.

But not the single currency.

Agreed. Also with whoever mentioned all the trade benefits but maintaining independent governance (although there are payoffs to be made to keep the trade/economic benefits)

 

[Biohazard]

Agreed. Also with whoever mentioned all the trade benefits but maintaining independent governance (although there are payoffs to be made to keep the trade/economic benefits)

That wouldn't be a European Union.

It would be trade agreements then. Like EFTA.

 

[[TW]Fox]

From an economics perspective?

Would you elaborate?

I studied a module on EU Economics at Uni. What else did you think I meant I thought it was pretty obvious!

 

[Biohazard]

I studied a module on EU Economics at Uni. What else did you think I meant I thought it was pretty obvious!

So you say its makes good economic sense, and because you have 'studied' it we have to just accept your opinion?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I said nothing of the sort. I said that once you dig deeper the EU is quite interesting and you could see a lot of the rationale behind remaining in it. Nothing more.

It isnt a statement of fact, neither did I say 'We need the EU! Accept my opinion!'.

Seriously, give up for once.

 

[Dave85]

haha that farage guy is quality

 

[.Ox.]

Go out tonight and have a few beers.

what a great idea good sir

 

[Biohazard]

I said nothing of the sort. I said that once you dig deeper the EU is quite interesting and you could see a lot of the rationale behind remaining in it. Nothing more.

Well what is your rationale for staying in it?

I perhaps assumed you meant the economic case due to that being your area of expertice.

You didn't study EU politics so I didn't think you'd have much to call on from your education.

Human behavour, even politics, boils down to that underlying factor. Economics and money.

So - what is your rationale for staying in an undemocratic union?

It isnt a statement of fact, neither did I say 'We need the EU! Accept my opinion!'.

No it was a statement of opinion that I pressed you on, nothing more.

Seriously, give up for once.

Pot kettle black.

Stop flapping about like an upset child?

 

[Westyfield2]

Whilst I do not agree with a lot of what Farage spouts, this made me smile when I saw it.

I love that man

 

[[TW]Fox]

I'm not going to engage you this time. I made a passing comment in response to a comment from somebody who had studied EU law. You interpreted it as my entire position on the European Union. The reason I brought what I had studied into it is because the person I replied to was talking about what he had studied. You know from the countless debates we've had in the past I never pull the 'education' card and I wasn't doing so this time, either.

So I'm afraid you'll be denied the fight you are spoiling for on this occasion - I don't feel passionately enough about the subject to waste the rest of the evening arguing with you and overcoming the inevitable round of personal insults, sorry.

Had you pressed me on an opinion on BMW's or something you might have got a bite. On this occasion I simply expressed that from the studying I did on it, I found it quite interesting and if you go deeper into the economic side of the EU you can see the rationale for why it exists. Things like solving problems with common property rights, structural funds, etc.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt actually and assume you simply misinterpreted why I posted what I did. Now I've clarified it for you.

 

[Biohazard]

I'm not going to engage you this time. I made a passing comment in response to a comment from somebody who had studied EU law. You interpreted it as my entire position on the European Union. The reason I brought what I had studied into it is because the person I replied to was talking about what he had studied. You know from the countless debates we've had in the past I never pull the 'education' card and I wasn't doing so this time, either.

Ok, obviously my miss understanding then.

I would still like to know your reasoning particularly given your education.

So I'm afraid you'll be denied the fight you are spoiling for on this occasion - I don't feel passionately enough about the subject to waste the rest of the evening arguing with you and overcoming the inevitable round of personal insults, sorry.

I'm not spoiling for a fight? Why are you trying so hard to emote this discussion?

I asked you for straight forward question (all beit slightly off I know realise). But you can still answer it. I am genuinely interested on in your opinion on the matter

On this occasion I simply expressed that from the studying I did on it, I found it quite interesting and if you go deeper into the economic side of the EU you can see the rationale for why it exists.

And I want to know your thinking behind the economic case for Europe.

"The economic side of the EU you can see the rationale for" - sounds like an economic case to me.

 

[The Halk]

So... I don't know a great deal about UKIP. I understand they want out of the EU and to renegotiate a treaty similar to the Swiss. However I don't know where they stand on other policies.

Are they right wing nut jobs, or are they more libertarian, or are they whigs, or are they a collection of all sorts?

 

[Biohazard]

So... I don't know a great deal about UKIP. I understand they want out of the EU and to renegotiate a treaty similar to the Swiss. However I don't know where they stand on other policies.

They don't.

That's the problem with UKIP. Personally, I agree with their positioning on the European Union.

I couldn't vote for them though because of the policy situation.

Are they right wing nut jobs, or are they more libertarian, or are they whigs, or are they a collection of all sorts?

They are realistic right wingers I'd say.

(collection of all sorts I guess, but I'm by no means expert on their party)

 

[The Halk]

The EU in my opinion is heading towards a superstate, and at it's core it is fundamentally anti-democratic. That's my main complaint. And I think we're on the train with the doors shut and we've left the last stop.... As far as I understand the Lisbon Treaty was what sealed our fate, and we either pull the emergency cord - which would likely lead to us leaving, or we stay for the duration.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Go on then. It's a huge area so I'll pick a couple of bits. Before I do its worth pointing out that I disagree quite strongly with the expansion of Europe to encompass the Eastern European countries. I feel the EU works better when it contains a number of similar economies rather than a vast and diverse range of different economies.

Firstly the free movement of labour around Europe is, or was, of huge benefit. The freedom to move, work and trade across borders is good for business in all EU member states.

Then you've got the economic benefits to consumers of areas of EU Law such as the Competition Policy - membership of the EU has opened up consumer markets which were previously dominated by national companies, giving consumers more choice. It also has the power to block anti-competitive mergers and impose fines on companies deemed to be exhibiting anti competitive behaviour. I accept this part is controversial and I disagree with the EU Competition Commissions ruling on Microsoft but the theory behind it is sound even if the way its often implemented isnt. But there are success stories, ie:

Nintendo found to be working with suppliers to artificially inflate prices across Europe in the 1990's. Fined for this.

Sotheby's were operating a price fixing Cartel across Europe - this was stamped out.

There are numerous more boring examples but those are two big names I thought illustrated the point quite well.

What about everyones favourite, the Common Fisheries Policy? It's full of flaws but at its heart it performs a good role - it protects common property rights. Without any sort of fisheries policy across the EU there would be nothing to stop rampant overfishing of common fish stocks which would eventually destroy the fishing industry - I presume you've heard of the tragedy of the commons.

There is lots of things wrong with the EU. Lots. But the basic idea and ecnomic rationale is sound and what the EU needs is reform not disbanding.

 

[Biohazard]

Go on then. It's a huge area so I'll pick a couple of bits. Before I do its worth pointing out that I disagree quite strongly with the expansion of Europe to encompass the Eastern European countries. I feel the EU works better when it contains a number of similar economies rather than a vast and diverse range of different economies.

Thanks

The old block EU economies are not exactly in tune either however. Look at the disparities before the recent expansion.

Problem being that you highlight there is the juxtiposition between political expansion and economic.

Unfortunately with Europe, both have to come at the same time.

Firstly the free movement of labour around Europe is, or was, of huge benefit. The freedom to move, work and trade across borders is good for business in all EU member states.

These can be attained outside of a political union by way of treaties.

I'm not so convinced on the economic benefits of the western flow of cheap labour.

T

hen you've got the economic benefits to consumers of areas of EU Law such as the Competition Policy

Which can be achieved under sovereign power ish.

I'd like to throw in that the way tender bidding is actually conducted our economy through being normally undercut by cheaper labour and construction abroad.

membership of the EU has opened up consumer markets which were previously dominated by national companies, giving consumers more choice.

Which markets are you thinking of?

It also has the power to block anti-competitive mergers and impose fines on companies deemed to be exhibiting anti competitive behaviour. I accept this part is controversial and I disagree with the EU Competition Commissions ruling on Microsoft but the theory behind it is sound even if the way its often implemented isnt. But there are success stories, ie:

This is one thing I do see is of some benefit to see collective unification or stance. However, I don't always agree with the results in practice.

You can tackle cartels with antitrust action at soveriegn level but the success of that is in question I know. Even at EU level it's a hard thing to get your teeth into.

What about everyones favourite, the Common Fisheries Policy? It's full of flaws but at its heart it performs a good role - it protects common property rights. Without any sort of fisheries policy across the EU there would be nothing to stop rampant overfishing of common fish stocks which would eventually destroy the fishing industry - I presume you've heard of the tragedy of the commons.

CFP decimated our industry.

CAP is hardly much better or efficient.

Ps there is a mechanism to stop over fishing.

Sovereignty.

The EU has not prevented reduction in our fish stocks. It hasn't stopped the Spanish boats either. We still need to send out the RN.

There is lots of things wrong with the EU. Lots. But the basic idea and ecnomic rationale is sound and what the EU needs is reform not disbanding.

I don't think the heavy economic overheads are worth paying for the poor implimentation when domestically we could do far better overall.

Should come into SC more (EU thread in particular).