Urapeeing Union

[[TW]Fox]

Unfortunately with the Euro, both have to come at the same time.

I disagree with the Euro and think it's a hugely bad idea - mostly because it removes a countries ability to use monetary policy to respond to assymetric shocks.

These can be attained outside of a political union by way of treaties.

They can, yes, but the political union makes them more permanent.

I'm not so convinced on the economic benefits of the western flow of cheap labour.

Me neither which is why I was keen to point out that I disagreed with the recent expansion of the EU. That same benefit is now proving to be a disadvantage, previously we never had problems with an influx of, say, German labour.

Which can be achieved in sovereign power.

Only nationally though - not internationally.

Which markets are you thinking of?

Electricity and Gas are the two that spring to mind instantly. I was going to say Railways as well but stopped short of that because privitisation is and was a disaster in this country, though with us being on an island it's a rather seperate issue and the opening up of rail networks in the rest of the Europe has proved to be beneficial.

CFP decimated our industry.

CFP decimated our industry because of poor enforcement of the rules in place and some questionable aspects of the policy. Without CFP the same would have happened to our industry, though. The problem was that the regulatory powers of CFP had no teeth not that CFP as a concept was a bad idea.

Without some sort of control fish stocks would have fallen victim to the tragedy of the commons.

Ps there is a mechanism to stop over fishing.

Sovereignty.

Not much use outside of national waters.

The EU has not prevented reduction in our fish stocks. It hasn't stopped the Spanish boats either. We still need to send out the RN.

This is a regulation issue - member states were also expected to police their own industry. Works well for us well to do Brits - but even better for the Spanish who IIRC headquartered the inspection team in Madrid

I don't think the heavy economic overheads are worth paying for the poor implimentation when domestically we could do far better overall.

Poor implementation is the problem. The theory behind a political union is very sound - but it's been implemented poorly. The solution is wholescale reform not getting rid entirely.

The biggest problem with this subject is that there is an awful lot of kneejerk opinion about it. Ask Mr Average in the street and he'll have a strong opinion on the EU yet likely know almost nothing about it.

 

[Biohazard]

I disagree with the Euro and think it's a hugely bad idea - mostly because it removes a countries ability to use monetary policy to respond to assymetric shocks.

+1

The problems we are seeing now were set in stone with the creation of the single euro policy.

They can, yes, but the political union makes them more permanent.

Only as permanent as that union itself mind. But yes I see your point, that works both ways though. If it becomes too much, like we are now, you can't back out.

There is no reason in my mind why couldn't revoke a treaty agreement at your own will however.

Me neither which is why I was keen to point out that I disagreed with the recent expansion of the EU. That same benefit is now proving to be a disadvantage, previously we never had problems with an influx of, say, German labour.

Neither can we stop this if we are apart of a European union which has its eyes fixed firmly on the east.

Turkey next?

Only nationally though - not internationally.

I agree, but multi sovereign political union cannot be the only framework for identifying and moving against Anti competition cartels.

A lot of overhead for something that rears its head up relatively rarely.

You could set up an antitrust commission by way of international treaty.

Electricity and Gas are the two that spring to mind instantly. I was going to say Railways as well but stopped short of that because privitisation is and was a disaster in this country, though with us being on an island it's a rather seperate issue and the opening up of rail networks in the rest of the Europe has proved to be beneficial.

We don't have more choice in the UK though because of it do we?

It is hardly benefiting the UK consumer either - to be fair however this issue doesn't have a magically 'fix me' button.

It's going to get worse. Especially as oil production drops in part of the world, expect amalgamation of energy companies to try to counter this.

CFP decimated our industry because of poor enforcement of the rules in place and some questionable aspects of the policy.

Europe has continually struggled with implimentation and policy.

CFP decimated our industry because Westminster let it, and continues to only monitor the fishing fleet with a insuffient number of ships.

I believe it to be two.

I agree this is a complex issue with problems from top to bottom, European policy has not helped our fishing industry what so ever.

It's helped Spain's a lot however.

(Some anecdote for you - Even then they have a bad habbit of taking RN personnal 'hostage' locking them in the hold until they can pull in and change the nets.)

Without CFP the same would have happened to our industry, though. The problem was that the regulatory powers of CFP had no teeth not that CFP as a concept was a bad idea.

Disagree. Power was given to Europe and it was negligent with policy creation. It has failed repeatedly to improve on its policy.

We would have had a better chance acting within sovereign and international law.

Without some sort of control fish stocks would have fallen victim to the tragedy of the commons.

Look at the effect it has though!

Stocks worsening! The whole thing over illegal/young catches is just bonkers.

Not much use outside of national waters.

International agreement via the United Nations convention.

That's how it was dealt with before.

This is a regulation issue - member states were also expected to police their own industry. Works well for us well to do Brits - but even better for the Spanish who IIRC headquartered the inspection team in Madrid

lol.

Exactly. There is nothing in the EU framework to punish those purposefully keeping their eye on the ball or not with this it would seem.

It's the boats that come into trouble.

Poor implementation is the problem. The theory behind a political union is very sound - but it's been implemented poorly. The solution is wholescale reform not getting rid entirely.

I agree it has been implemented very poorly.

I disagree on Political Union. Because I don't think it has ever been implimented fairly or properly.

The EU is a perfect example with the economic political and social disparities in which some countries pay more than others, and countries benefit more than others etc

We have waited for wholescale reform and the only way they seem to manage to do it in their mind is totally undemocratic. With the end result looking pretty similar.

 

[Darkstaruk]

The benefits simply aren't worth it

If you support the EU then you're supporting the NWO. The US has it's own EU it's called the North American Union.

 

[Castiel]

The benefits simply aren't worth it

If you support the EU then you're supporting the NWO. The US has it's own EU it's called the North American Union.

Supporting the what?

The NWO, where is their main office?

 

[G-MAN2004]

haha that farage guy is quality

This. We need people like that who actually speak their mind, instead of the pussy politicians who are too scared to speak up for anyone.

 

[Biohazard]

If you support the EU then you're supporting the NWO.

Oh noes!!!

The US has it's own EU it's called the North American Union.

Maybe in the future.

It isn't a reality just now.

 

[Biohazard]

Supporting the what?

The NWO, where is their main office?

I know where NWA have their offices!

Somewhere in compton I'm led to believe....

 

[Castiel]

I know where NWA have their offices!

Somewhere in compton I'm led to believe....

I heard they had left, something about Straight outta.......

 

[hybrid572]

A couple of thoughts:

As voiced in this thread vehemently, the euro is a terrible idea that we should keep well away from- we're already far too financially invested in financially irresponsible countries, and the euro would (as the recent recession has shown) cripple us.

Certainly a significant proportion of business and trade in the UK comes from our membership of the EU. This is not a reason to stay a member however; other countries have managed to leave while keeping these trade agreements open.

The politics of the EU are complicated; we love some policies and hate others. However, we never voted to become part of the EU, there is little anti-europe feeling among the non-nutjob parties (anybody who thinks UKIP maintains a shred of credibility should try reading their policies or listening to Nigel Farage), and most importantly, the majority of the UK feels as if their voice means nothing on EU policy. For this reason alone, submitting to EU rule is wrong.

My greatest problem with the EU, however, is the £14bn/year (£43m/day) bill we face, with very little in subsidies to show for it (and £1bn in fines for not ticking the boxes on their allocation). Although the idea of "rich countries pay more" is a fair one, realistically we've got to be in it for ourselves, not to help out Estonia.

And if nothing else, taking in thousands of immigrants from Europe when we have record high unemployment is the pinnacle of stupidity.

 

[Darkstaruk]

The NWO are real! here's a couple of members

Taking the **** out of myself there. I'm not some crazy conspiracy theory nut but it does look like we're heading down the path for a one world government. I doubt it will ever happen and even then it might not be a bad thing.