Cheap Dolby digital live INTERNAL gfx connection card?

[Sampson]

Hi, I'm building a gaming PC which will plug into my "home cinema" amp and play on TV and speakers as if a console.
I'm after a soundcard to allow for 5.1 (or 7.1) sound to be sent to my amp; thus Dolby Digital or DTS live.
I'm considering a Xonor DS as the cheapest I an find though I'm a little unsure if I actually need the D1. Its a shame I can't afford an x-fi which has this (seems to be only high end ones) as will really miss high end EAX.

Also, I'm very interested in the SPDIF internal connection to connect to a graphics card and have both video and audio come out the one single HDMI cable, however the details on this say you need a compatible graphics card and I any find out how to determine if a card is compatible.
I'm considering lower end Geforce 460 cards like the MSI cyclone or ASUS direct CU TOP. Can anyone tell me if these are compatable.

Will my plan work? I simply want a single HDMI sending the video and 5.1 (ideally 7.1, but not expecting this) to the amp in either Dolby digital or DTS, or indeed their HD variants.
Cost is a serious issue.

 

[james.miller]

if cost is an issue then id spend all your budget (what is it by the way, you never said?) on an ati card with proper 7.1 HD audio compatibility. If you're looking at gtx 460's and a xonar ds then your budget is what, £160-180?

6850? http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-253-SP&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1866 £150 inc vat is hard to ignore. massively capable card for that price.

all the sound processing is done internally on the graphics card, so no addition card like the xonar is needed and that will give you 7.1 LPCM and it'll even bitstream the HD audio formats (both of which cant be done with spdif outputs) if that's too expensive then all of the 5 and 6 series ATi cards have the same audio capabilities, which makes them idea for HTPC use - lower end card if you purely want video and audio, upper end if you want to play games as well. I've got a 5850 in my HTPC and it's pretty much spot on,. It's quiet when it needs to be and isnt a half bad gaming card as well

 

[Sampson]

Hmm... I had no idea ATI could do that. Very impressive.
I don't really have a solid budget, currently speccing 7 different pc builds and will see which feels best bang for buck. Can't see gfx+sound being more than £150 though.
I think it will take a LOT of research convincing me to go ati though. Never liked ati in past and didn't get on with drivers etc. Also building pc at same time two LAN buddies are who have both gone for 460 cards under my recommendation.
I was expecting to just get sound card suggestions from this thread, thanks!

EDIT: Was starting to be tempted by ati, figuring I could soudcard money of gfx and getter a higher performing card, but now discovered ati doesn't have physx so massively put of again. Think I'll stick with the 460 and just look for soundcard suggestions / gfx comparability with internal linkup - thanks for the good idea though.

 

[Uriel]

One caveat is that ATI do not have a fix for the removal of DirectSound3D since Vista. This means that a lot of older games will be restricted to 2 channel, where as with an X-Fi or Xonar you could get surround sound.

Very few games released since 2007 are affected though.

Not sure about SPDIF internal connectors. Not something I've looked at in detail.

 

[james.miller]

Hmm... I had no idea ATI could do that. Very impressive.
I don't really have a solid budget, currently speccing 7 different pc builds and will see which feels best bang for buck. Can't see gfx+sound being more than £150 though.
I think it will take a LOT of research convincing me to go ati though. Never liked ati in past and didn't get on with drivers etc. Also building pc at same time two LAN buddies are who have both gone for 460 cards under my recommendation.
I was expecting to just get sound card suggestions from this thread, thanks! [/I]

then go with a 460 and a ds. you'll have less performance, no hd audio bitstreaming and no 6.1/7.1 lpcm, but at least you'll have physx.

 

[Sampson]

then go with a 460 and a ds. you'll have less performance, no hd audio bitstreaming and no 6.1/7.1 lpcm, but at least you'll have physx.

That sounds depressing! More research is indeed needed once I get home and off my mobile.
Not entirely sure if bitstreaming or lpcm is what I need (lack of understanding) what I want is games to be coverted realtime to either Dolby digital or DTS and sent down the HDMI cable to be decoded by my external amp which happily accepts DD, DTS, DTS:HD Master and whatever the HD version of DD is. (Onkyo 606)
Thanks for all your suggestions and help so, really fast and supportive.

 

[james.miller]

there isn't an all in one solution as far as i'm aware, not a budget one anyway. it's going to be a compromise at the budget whatever you choose.

You've got 3 options as far as i can see:

gtx460 and a xonar ds

pros:
* physx
* xonar processing for games

cons:
* no LPCM output and no HD bitstreaming due to the limitations of the spdif connection that needs to be made between the xonar and the gtx460.
* bit slower

ATI HD6850

pros:
* 7.1 192khz 24bit LPCM output and Hd bitstreaming
* bit faster

cons:
no physx
no xonar processing

gtx560

pros:
* quickest of the 3
* full LPCM and bitstreaming support as with the 6850
* physx

cons:
* £50 dearer
* no xonar processing

Not entirely sure if bitstreaming or lpcm is what I need (lack of understanding) what I want is games to be coverted realtime to either Dolby digital or DTS and sent down the HDMI cable to be decoded by my external amp which happily accepts DD, DTS, DTS:HD Master and whatever the HD version of DD is. (Onkyo 606)
Thanks for all your suggestions and help so, really fast and supportive.

LPCM is uncompressed audio, the same as the audio on a cd (though cd audio is often shortened to just 'PCM'). LPCM output is good because it means multi-channel uncompressed audio, and next to Dolby digital or DTS, it's LPCM output i chose because of the quality improvements that come with it.

Bitstreaming refers to the unmolested output of DTS HD (HD Master audio to give it its full name lol) and dolby digital TrueHD. if a sound card cant bitstream these formats, the pc must first decode them so that the sound card can deal with the audio. In the case of the gtx460 and d2, the software would decode the dts: HD MA pass the resulting audio to the soundcard. the soundcard would encode this audio in to either DD or DTS, both of which are a lossy format, which is then passed to the graphics card and on to the amp to be decoded again.

with the gtx560 or the hd6850, the software and the sound 'card' on the graphics cards does nothing with audio, it is nearly passed on to the amp which does the decoding itself. This is why Hd bitstreaming is imo a useful feature to have in a htpc, because those unnecessary steps which can introduce a loss in audio quality are removed.

I Kind of rambled through that, hope easy enough to understand

 

[Sampson]

Wow... amazing, thanks for much.
I'm finding very little info on the geforce 560 sound abaility, and whilst I keep seeing things that say it can output digital surround sound, I can't find anything that says it utilises dolby digital live etc to give me 5.1/7.1 in games.
I know when looking at soundcards, plenty had spdif out but was no use in games for more than stereo and I'm concerned this may be the same here. (but perhaps as it is never decoded at PC level the terms DD live etc aren't used?).
I'd hate to plunge for a geforce 560 (even though the excuse to get a much faster card is tempting!!!) only to find I didn't get the gaming surround sound after all.
EAX will be a shame too loose, I love hearing bullets/footsteps sound different when walking in a building as opposed to outside, but I guess I'll just have to live with it.
The only X-Fi cards with DD live seem massively expensive.

 

[Uriel]

EAX will be a shame too loose, I love hearing bullets/footsteps sound different when walking in a building as opposed to outside, but I guess I'll just have to live with it.
The only X-Fi cards with DD live seem massively expensive.

EAX isn't required for that in the vast majority of games these days and you will only lose the effect in older games. Most new games have some environmental audio anyway and don't rely on Creative for it any more.

I do have another option for you though. On auction sites, you will find an X-Fi model called the SB0770. This is basically an OEM PCI version of the X-Fi titanium but usually marketed as Xtreme Gamer or Xtreme music. It has optical in and out but does not include Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect.

The good news is that the card should set you back about £35 new and enabling DDL and DTSC is a further US$5 to Creative's USA webstore.

Edit: link for DDL enabling here: http://buy.soundblaster.com/_creati...ail&category=Software&pid=F2222DDN6Z2H2ADDEZD. I have personally tested this with a SB0770 and it works fine.

 

[james.miller]

Wow... amazing, thanks for much.
I'm finding very little info on the geforce 560 sound abaility, and whilst I keep seeing things that say it can output digital surround sound, I can't find anything that says it utilises dolby digital live etc to give me 5.1/7.1 in games..

that's the beauty of LPCM - you dont need DDLive or DTS connect

 

[Sampson]

Thank you both, James and Uriel, for your in-depth and thoughtful advice.
I have made my decision, and purchase, and elected for the Geforce 560.

Thanks again.