one more energy contraption

bazaarboy

bazaarboy

bazaarboy

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seen a few threads suggesting if various contraptions can "make free" energy.
now, I'm not going to insult you by suggesting that the laws of thermodynamics can be violated :D
however, most of the energy around us goes unused, so take a look below and tell me if you think this machine is possible:

This is a microscopic machine, say about 100 microns in size.
It is built from two basic components: one is a pipe-like structure (something like a microtubule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule)
The other part is an axle inside the microtubule.

See a picture of this structure:

3a7762a6e3.jpg


The red part has a lumen that is not exactly cylindrical, but rather notched.
This makes rotation of the blue part impossible in a clockwise direction, and only possible anticlockwise by a gentle compression of the red notched area.

Ok that's enough microanatomy!

Anticlockwise rotation of the blue part will generate energy, eg. by generating ATP molecules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

Exact details about how ATP is generated is not needed, but similar chemical reactions are know to exist in nature. The point is we are utilising energy from the compression of the red notched bit to make covalent bonds.

The blue bit is prevented from rotating clockwise to prevent the reverse chemical reaction.

Soooo - what force are we using to rotate the blue bit?

Well, it's a free and abundant force: brownian motion. See the image below:

dd76a51fe3.jpg


Basically the blue and red bits are attached to larger structures which constantly jiggle about but due to the molecular ratchet mechanism the blue bit only moves in one direction, generating high energy bonds, for us to use later...

So, is this possible? What do you think?
 
going back to biology 101, ATP can be used to power other organelles, eg to make fatty acids, alcohols or anything else you want to burn
 
Interesting.... I'll do some thinking/sketching and get back to you.

I foresee several problems with the actual design though. Also I know nothing about ATP
 
You're just using the energy from the Brownian motion to make a different form of energy albeit with a loss due to inefficiencies.

I suppose if this system worked and you could make enough of them to generate useful levels of energy there might be a point but tried and tested forms of energy generation would probably perform better (although without testing would be required to confirm or deny this).
 
Antar Bolaeisk said:
You're just using the energy from the Brownian motion to make a different form of energy albeit with a loss due to inefficiencies.

I suppose if this system worked and you could make enough of them to generate useful levels of energy there might be a point but tried and tested forms of energy generation would probably perform better.
Click to expand...

correct, brownian motion converted into high energy bonds, sure there is going to be losses but what process doesnt, plus this can go unsupervised etc
 
bazaarboy said:
brownian motion is ubiquitous, small things just jiggle

Click to expand...

Isn't it usually molecules that jiggle due to Brownian motion? And they jiggle in proportion to their temperature? So your machine would convert heat/kinetic energy into ATP. That sounds sketchy on the thermodynamics front already.

What are you proposing to make your little gadgets out of? How small are they going to be? How much energy is it going to take to make them? How many are you going to need to produce any appreciable amount of energy?
 
vonhelmet said:
Isn't it usually molecules that jiggle due to Brownian motion? And they jiggle in proportion to their temperature? So your machine would convert heat/kinetic energy into ATP. That sounds sketchy on the thermodynamics front already.
Click to expand...

nope, large visible particle move, see the youtube link above

vonhelmet said:
What are you proposing to make your little gadgets out of? How small are they going to be? How much energy is it going to take to make them? How many are you going to need to produce any appreciable amount of energy?
Click to expand...

production is tricky, but not impossible, we already manufacture items of similar magnitude, I was thinking maybe modified bacterial genomes eg like we use to make recombinant molecules
 
I'm struggling with this one.

Essentially, you're taking a principle similar to those watches that recharge using kinetic energy, but taking it to a molecular level?
 
vonhelmet said:
Yes, but those larger particles are just being pushed around by the molecules doing the actual jiggling.
Click to expand...

i dont think so, small particles move on "their own accord", no pushing involved - I'm not a chemist or physicist but I thought they moved in the direction of the sum vector of their constituent molecular vibrations
 
bazaarboy said:
i dont think so, small particles move on "their own accord", no pushing involved - I'm not a chemist or physicist but I thought they moved in the direction of the sum vector of their constituent molecular vibrations
Click to expand...

Molecules in a fluid are constantly moving, yes. Larger particles are only moved by those molecules. In your video above, the visibly moving lipid particles are only moving because they are being buffeted by the molecules moving in the water in which they are sitting. A solid is not constantly moving; at least not as you seem to be suggesting.
 
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It wont work unless you replicate the electron transport chain in cellular membranes to produce the ATP in the first place. Basically what your asking is to replicate 5 cytochrome molecules artificially and then create an artificial proton motive force to drive the ATPsynthase enzyme which converts ADP to ATP.

Goodluck with that bit
 
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