Is your excuse that you don't?Let me guess you have a grammar plugin for your browser
That still brings the question, how do you categorise? If you don't do it by price, it puts the 470 in to a lesser category than the 5870.
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So ladies and gents, was fermi a fail after all?
- Thread starter deusexlumina
- Start date
Don't mind Captain Flip-Flop there, before you know it, he'll be back to slating nVidia and gushing over AMD, as the card he currently owns is always "THE BEST CARD I'VE EVER OWNED!".
For me personally the initial fermis reminded me way too much of the good old GeForce FX / leafblowers though in hindsight I realise a lot of that was down to peoples somewhat skewed opinions rather than actual facts.
With the refresh nvidia are back on top of their game though not without thanks to a rather lacklustre response from AMD - had they pulled somthing special out of the bag then this thread would be reading somewhat differently
With the refresh nvidia are back on top of their game though not without thanks to a rather lacklustre response from AMD - had they pulled somthing special out of the bag then this thread would be reading somewhat differently
Associate
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- 1,379
Well I'm trying to take it on the chin so hope I didn't come off as if I was biting back. He's got his opinion and I've got mine, just felt if he was throwing in remarks then maybe mine needed to be clarified a little further and was trying to keep debate going but arguing to minimum.Don't mind Captain Flip-Flop there, before you know it, he'll be back to slating nVidia and gushing over AMD, as the card he currently owns is always "THE BEST CARD I'VE EVER OWNED!".
For me personally the initial fermis reminded me way too much of the good old GeForce FX / leafblowers though in hindsight I realise a lot of that was down to peoples somewhat skewed opinions rather than actual facts.
With the refresh nvidia are back on top of their game though not without thanks to a rather lacklustre response from AMD - had they pulled somthing special out of the bag then this thread would be reading somewhat differently
What is "lacklustre" about AMD's latest offerings, if you think nVidia's latest has "brought them back on top of their game"? It's extremely contradictory to suggest that.
Oh you again? really?...
Read all the words. It does make sense.. you just have to try a little harder.
One thing that annoyed me was the lack of driver support from the very beginning.
NV are probs at the top of their game now. look at the 560.Good value for money.
The 570 would probably have been more in demand if AMD hadn't screwed up with the unlocking. maybe they did it intentionally but i doubt it.
The 580 is the best single GPU. It is still in demand. SUCCESS
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- 3,011
But surely what we are talking about here is the marketing success of the card, to say its the best gpu --> ergo it's a success is a tad silly. A company could develop a gpu 4x as powerful as the 580 but if they charged you £3000 for it would you buy it? most probably not...
The success is more to do with the fact the 560/460/470 and now the 480 are good value for money.
personally i think AMD allowed the unlocking on these cards, its quite unlikely that a large multinational corporation would miss something like that. And even if they did, and they didnt want the feature present, then we would see very few rev 1's lest on the market right now, and the core unlocking on thier cpus would have been stopped a long time ago.
Oh you again? really?...
Read all the words. It does make sense.. you just have to try a little harder.
No, my point is that both nVidia's and AMD's current offerings are lacklustre. They both offer the same performance increase over the last lot of cards, and therefore are fails just as much as each other.
The 560 and 6950 are about the only 2 cards worth their money at the moment. As for the 580 being in demand? Well maybe some people are still buying them, but compared to how many 6950s that are being sold, it means very little. The 560 will be outselling the 580 by a massive amount as well.
@ i fancy boys: i wouldnt buy a £3000 card but i did say that the 580 was in demand. You see quite a few threads regaeding buying one on here. Asus made a custom cooler for it and not one for the 6970 which was planned. As fir the success i was talking sikey about the fact that they are in demand. I doubt suppliers are trying tobhoard them out ASAP are they? I also found it had to believe theat they would miss the unlocking but then what was the point of the 6970? Im sure Gibbo wouldnt have ordered so many if he had known about this and i doubt AMD would have withheld something from the partners.
@kylew: i never said that the 580 sild anything like those mid rangers. See my point above - same arguement applies. About the cards worth their money, you must have forgotten about the 480,470,460,5850,5870,6850 etc
@kylew: i never said that the 580 sild anything like those mid rangers. See my point above - same arguement applies. About the cards worth their money, you must have forgotten about the 480,470,460,5850,5870,6850 etc
Soldato
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It depends on how you fine failure. If you one of the those people who picked a GTX470 or GTX480 recently at dirt cheap prices then I guess you would say no G1 wasn't a failure because there able to get GTX570 performance from a GTX480 for £100 less. If you were one of those people who paid £300+ for GTX470 when it first launched your probably crying into your cornflakes but comforted by the fact your card does overclock well.
From a business stand point G1 Fermi can't be considered anything else but a failure. Late, broken, hot, expensive and it had to be heavily discounted to compete against the competition. Cards like the GTX460 sold well but its die was as large as the HD5870 which sold for twice the price it's hard to imagine Nvidia making any sizeable returns on G1 Fermi.
G2 has been received well and has fixed most of the problems of G1 namely noise and heat with a better stock cooler and they've even managed to make the die a tad smaller but again with AMD having smaller die's and lower costs Nvidia will always be a price disadvantage. Also G2 really hasn't yet produced a card that has caught peoples imagination like the GTX460 did when it first arrived so this could be an opportunity for AMD to take some more market share or for Nvidia to regain it.
From a business stand point G1 Fermi can't be considered anything else but a failure. Late, broken, hot, expensive and it had to be heavily discounted to compete against the competition. Cards like the GTX460 sold well but its die was as large as the HD5870 which sold for twice the price it's hard to imagine Nvidia making any sizeable returns on G1 Fermi.
G2 has been received well and has fixed most of the problems of G1 namely noise and heat with a better stock cooler and they've even managed to make the die a tad smaller but again with AMD having smaller die's and lower costs Nvidia will always be a price disadvantage. Also G2 really hasn't yet produced a card that has caught peoples imagination like the GTX460 did when it first arrived so this could be an opportunity for AMD to take some more market share or for Nvidia to regain it.
As stated it depends on what angle you are coming at it from. As a consumer I certainly wouldn't call it a failure, they delivered good powerful cards that weren't blown out the water by a rival product. A card being "late" isn't necessarily a problem if performs well enough relative to the competition - for a genuine failure, look at something like NV30 (FX5800 etc) which appeared after the R300 (9700pro etc) from ATI.
Whether or not they were a business success for Nvidia or not is another question of course.
Whether or not they were a business success for Nvidia or not is another question of course.
Caporegime
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FErmi is and was a HUGE failure, today, yesterday a year ago, 5 years from now.
Its really that simple, marketshare, AMD has complete control of dx11 marketshare, Nvidia still doesn't have proper low end parts because of the modularity that means they just can't put out a 16 shader card like previous gens thats tiny and costs nothing and sells upwards of 10mil to OEM's.
Fermi, its power issues, and Nvidia's general behaviour are almost certainly screwing them out of a chance to be in a single next generation console. So imagine whats going to happen when not a single console, or console to PC port, or multiplatform release isn't "nvidia optimised".
I've also said, for OVER a year without changing my tune that Fermi is a massive failure for NVIDIA not the end user.
Frankly give me a 600W uber card witha triple slot cooler, I'll buy an 1200W psu and be very happy, the cost of a mammoth single core that used that much power is something Nvidia/AMD can't afford to make.
Fermi is incredibly NOT profitable, at any price point except the 580GTX which while a few people do have them, and a few in terms of all graphics sales is still 1000's and these forums give an entirely skewed idea of whats in a "normal" persons system, its not selling in vast quantities AT ALL. Its huge, and it sucks power, and OEM's don't really trust them, and they've lost market share, and they can't offer a platform, and they are losing sales and money over it.
Nvidia make PLENTY of money on other area's, but desktop gpu's Fermi is an entire failure, Tegra 2, still to be seen really, Nvidia finally got something right, first to market with a dual core arm is a pretty big feat, though is it best, who knows. The question is, does best matter when you're first to market and established, ask Nvidia the answer and mention DX11 and desktop Fermi architecture sales.
Faster doesn't mean better, or a success, if AMD turned around and sold 6970's at £30 they'd have the most successful card of all time, and lose hundreds of millions of dollars, great card at a great price, success, no. If they could ONLY sell the 6970 at £30 it would be an entire failure even if end users love them.
THe 6950 makes more profit than a 570gtx, sells more, isn't far off performance wise and with a free and easy flash is basically as fast/faster than it.
This is the problem, success and failure are quantifiable, is the 570gtx a success with users, yes, is it a business success driving forwards massive sales and market share gains vs their opposition, not in the slightest.
The only reason the 580gtx is faster than AMD's current top card, oh wait, its not, its still 40% behind the 5970........
Seriously the only reason the 580gtx is faster than the 6970 is the 580gtx IS the design Nvidia planned and tried to make to be released late 2009, that had been worked on for a couple of years at that point, and took 4 respins(or 3 I've lost count now) to get working right. The 6970 is a MUCH newer design, started MUCH later entirely designed for 32nm, that had to be brought to a higher process design and have lots of bits cut off to fit, they did this in a much shorter space of time, on the wrong process, improved performance, added features, improved flexibility, improved gpgpu features, added features that will help push them in a professional market, drastically increased crossfire scaling.
In the midrange they got almost the same performance out of a 255mm2 core, thats HUGE, business wise thats absolutely immense for them, thats a hugely profitable and very fast gaming core. Huge sales, huge profit, huge marketshare, huge availability, huge success.
Its really that simple, marketshare, AMD has complete control of dx11 marketshare, Nvidia still doesn't have proper low end parts because of the modularity that means they just can't put out a 16 shader card like previous gens thats tiny and costs nothing and sells upwards of 10mil to OEM's.
Fermi, its power issues, and Nvidia's general behaviour are almost certainly screwing them out of a chance to be in a single next generation console. So imagine whats going to happen when not a single console, or console to PC port, or multiplatform release isn't "nvidia optimised".
I've also said, for OVER a year without changing my tune that Fermi is a massive failure for NVIDIA not the end user.
Frankly give me a 600W uber card witha triple slot cooler, I'll buy an 1200W psu and be very happy, the cost of a mammoth single core that used that much power is something Nvidia/AMD can't afford to make.
Fermi is incredibly NOT profitable, at any price point except the 580GTX which while a few people do have them, and a few in terms of all graphics sales is still 1000's and these forums give an entirely skewed idea of whats in a "normal" persons system, its not selling in vast quantities AT ALL. Its huge, and it sucks power, and OEM's don't really trust them, and they've lost market share, and they can't offer a platform, and they are losing sales and money over it.
Nvidia make PLENTY of money on other area's, but desktop gpu's Fermi is an entire failure, Tegra 2, still to be seen really, Nvidia finally got something right, first to market with a dual core arm is a pretty big feat, though is it best, who knows. The question is, does best matter when you're first to market and established, ask Nvidia the answer and mention DX11 and desktop Fermi architecture sales.
Faster doesn't mean better, or a success, if AMD turned around and sold 6970's at £30 they'd have the most successful card of all time, and lose hundreds of millions of dollars, great card at a great price, success, no. If they could ONLY sell the 6970 at £30 it would be an entire failure even if end users love them.
THe 6950 makes more profit than a 570gtx, sells more, isn't far off performance wise and with a free and easy flash is basically as fast/faster than it.
This is the problem, success and failure are quantifiable, is the 570gtx a success with users, yes, is it a business success driving forwards massive sales and market share gains vs their opposition, not in the slightest.
The only reason the 580gtx is faster than AMD's current top card, oh wait, its not, its still 40% behind the 5970........
Seriously the only reason the 580gtx is faster than the 6970 is the 580gtx IS the design Nvidia planned and tried to make to be released late 2009, that had been worked on for a couple of years at that point, and took 4 respins(or 3 I've lost count now) to get working right. The 6970 is a MUCH newer design, started MUCH later entirely designed for 32nm, that had to be brought to a higher process design and have lots of bits cut off to fit, they did this in a much shorter space of time, on the wrong process, improved performance, added features, improved flexibility, improved gpgpu features, added features that will help push them in a professional market, drastically increased crossfire scaling.
In the midrange they got almost the same performance out of a 255mm2 core, thats HUGE, business wise thats absolutely immense for them, thats a hugely profitable and very fast gaming core. Huge sales, huge profit, huge marketshare, huge availability, huge success.
I was using a 4870 still dec just gone and i studied long and hard, I skipped the 5000 series and I refused to buy gtx 400 series.
I spent a lot of time comparing between a 6850,6870,695/70 and a 570.
Price performance the 6950 with a successful unlock couldnt be beat at the time
my 6950 was £215 compared to the cheapest 570 i could find at £290.
Yep the 6950/70 do run hot and are noisy but with a custom fan profile maxing at 45% I can maintain low 70 degrees max temp.
I disagree that the 570/580 can overclock way better, its debatable as to the max average overclock for 6950/70 to gtx 470-80/570 etc. I have seen over 1ghz overclocks from both my own 6950 and from 570's 6950/70s on the net. I agree the 6950/70 are noisy once hitting over 45%
Voltage unlock and unlocked clock speeds took a while to get supported on the 6950/70 thats no longer the case. And my card can overclock to 950/1400ram for 24/7 use I have had it upto 1052/1500 ram but way too noisy to use.
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Yeah!!!!!!!!! The more power a graphics card pulls, and the more it costs means it's more premium!!!!!!!!!! Premium means millions of FPS!!!!!!!!
Derp.