Inset Days

[.Lethal]

From my limited understanding here isn't there a shortage of teachers in the UK as it is?

If there was a 90 day notice to reduce wages or increase hours I'm sure some would find alternative employment and the number seeking teaching jobs would drop, causing more problems in the long run.

 

[Castiel]

So you would be fine if the company you are working for just gave you 90 days notice of a 10% pay cut? No negotiation, just did it? I know I wouldn't be, yet you expect teachers to just take it on the chin because you don't want to take a day off?

They did, although it was offered voluntarily to begin with and only those who did not take the hint were issued with a 90 day notice, that is how things were a couple of years ago unfortunately.

I see no reason why the reduction could not be implemented progressively integral to annual pay increases or bonus payments, and it has nothing to do with my ability to take a day off whenever I want, but the situation for millions of parents who simply do not have that option and either have to pay out money they can ill-afford for child care or lose income and reputation at work if they are forced to take time off.

Given that the Holiday entitlement for teachers would still be 3 months, I feel it is a little cheeky to use the "just take a day off" argument to defend it.

As we are always being told, we need to get value for money from our public services. Is 13 weeks holiday VFM?

 

[RDM]

They did, and that is how things were a couple of years ago unfortunately.

Did you like it? Were you happy about it? If it was not necessary would you still have liked it and been happy about it?

I see no reason why the reduction could not be implemented progressively integral to annual pay increases or bonus payments,

So you would be looking at compensating them for reducing a benefit...

and it has nothing to do with my ability to take a day off whenever I want, but the situation for millions of parents who simply do not have that option and either have to pay out money they can ill-afford for child care or lose income and reputation at work if they are forced to take time off.

And yet for many years (Baker days started when I was still at school) we working parents seemed to have managed fine. Go figure.

Given that the Holiday entitlement for teachers would still be 3 months, I feel it is a little cheeky to use the "just take a day off" argument to defend it.

Well you are using "It is inconvenient for parents" as a justification for amending someones terms and conditions...

 

[Destination]

I quite agree with you, I would like to see that kind of education system. However, what would the Teachers think about it.

I think I know, unfortunately.

No-one is disputing that the vast majority of Teachers and their assistants do a fantastic and at times difficult job. Given the lack of discipline and the way in which current thinking has tied their hands in the majority of issues facing them I think they should be commended more often.

However, that doesn't change the fact that reducing the holiday entitlement to 12 weeks instead of 13 to accommodate the training days is not too onerous a request.

TBH I don't think it should be 'teachers' doing the afternoon stuff. Pay the teachers whatever for their morning o work, which is similar hours to they do now, then employ a stack of trained professionals to do the afternoon work.
If a teacher wants to doble job let them, but it should be treated as a second job.

PE teachers, they work the afternoon shifts with various groups, same for music, same for whatever else fills the spaces. Its about overall education, and a trained physics teacher isn't trained to teach extra-cirruluar activities at present, so shouldn't be doing it unless he retrains.

It would be one way of using public funds to create a more rounded society, and I actually think that kids who are taugher from am to lunchtime, then exercised, or trained, or 'experienced' for their afternoon, to5pm or 6pm, will be shattered (but in a good way) and will lead to less public incidents, higher attendances and overall it'll make the kids watch less TV in the evenings as they will go to bed earlier, rise with sun bed with dusk, as is done in the half of the world who live near the equator.

The kids shouldn't be watching skins, they certainly shouldn't be living their lives like a cast member. My ideas would have course cost money, but it would employ people, and generate a better society, and over time I think that would pay off.

 

[Castiel]

Did you like it? Were you happy about it? If it was not necessary would you still have liked it and been happy about it?

I could say, "Of course I was happy about it", I would be lying though.

However I saw the need for it, and I took the pay decrease (which in my case as a director was 20%). It enabled us to keep everyone in employment and not reduce the wages of the non-management staff.

So you would be looking at compensating them for reducing a benefit...

Of course, as long as it didn't include a 50% pay increase which was what was demanded by teaching unions when this was put forward once before. (it was for a reduction of 5 weeks, rather than 1, but still asking for a 6 month worth of salary increase in return for one month of holiday....hmmmm)

And yet for many years (Baker days started when I was still at school) we working parents seemed to have managed fine. Go figure.

People manage now, however the situation has changed with more and more families needing two full time wages just to keep up with the cost of living.

The education system should also adapt to the changing face of society.

Well you are using "It is inconvenient for parents" as a justification for amending someones terms and conditions...

Touche....

but it is a little more than just the inconvenience to parents, but also the economic and educational impact to the Public Purse and Children.

 

[vicisthebest]

Still, all the teachers here, no one has given me a number of holidays they have a year.

I have 24 + public holidays. Whats yours?

How many public holidays are there? Do you get about 32/3 in total?

I know that this year:

6 week holidays = 31 days
Easter = 10 days
Christmas = 10 days
Feb half term = 5 days
Oct half term = 5 days
Public hols which don't fall in school hols - only May Day that I can think of, think all the others are in school hols, but this year we have a day for the Royal Wedding as well.

5 days INSET - children not in school but we are.

Total = 63 days. Plus 5 INSET days.

 

[RDM]

I could say, "Of course I was happy about it", I would be lying though.

However I saw the need for it, and I took the pay decrease (which in my case as a director was 20%). It enabled us to keep everyone in employment and not reduce the wages of the non-management staff.

But the proposed changes to teaching holidays don't really fall in to that "We have to do it or we may all be out of a job" situation.

Of course, as long as it didn't include a 50% pay increase which was what was demanded by teaching unions when this was put forward once before. (it was for a reduction of 5 weeks, rather than 1, but still asking for a 6 month worth of salary increase in return for one month of holiday....hmmmm)

Actually that doesn't sound too bad to be honest, halving holiday entitlement and still restricting when those holidays can be taken quite considerably is a massive change to one of the main benefits of teaching. To use your own argument think of all the trouble that any teachers who were parents would face with that sort of arrangement!

People manage now, however the situation has changed with more and more families needing two full time wages just to keep up with the cost of living.

The education system should also adapt to the changing face of society.

I agree, however I don't really see this as a necessary change to adapt to society. There are much more important changes to the education system I would like to see first (which would include measures that would be even more inconvenient to parents such as starting education at 7 rather than 4).

Touche....

but it is a little more than just the inconvenience to parents, but also the economic and educational impact to the Public Purse and Children.

The educational impact will be pretty minimal, I would guess that the economic impact would be mininal too, after all those holidays would need to be taken anyway. It really does seem more a move of convenience, which is harder to justify.

To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't mind if it did move to non-term time, if I do go in to teaching even 58 days will seem like a lot of holidays compared to what I have been used to.

 

[Castiel]

But the proposed changes to teaching holidays don't really fall in to that "We have to do it or we may all be out of a job" situation.

I never said it did, however it does impact on efficiency and budget considerations.

Actually that doesn't sound too bad to be honest, halving holiday entitlement and still restricting when those holidays can be taken quite considerably is a massive change to one of the main benefits of teaching. To use your own argument think of all the trouble that any teachers who were parents would face with that sort of arrangement!

Teachers with children already complain about the need for inset days to be outside term time, one look at mumsnet will show you that.

Holiday entitlements are restricted in many occupations, yet they do not receive 13 weeks as compensation.

I agree, however I don't really see this as a necessary change to adapt to society. There are much more important changes to the education system I would like to see first (which would include measures that would be even more inconvenient to parents such as starting education at 7 rather than 4).

It would depend on how it is applied as to how inconvenient it would be.

The educational impact will be pretty minimal, I would guess that the economic impact would be mininal too, after all those holidays would need to be taken anyway. It really does seem more a move of convenience, which is harder to justify.

The economy loses billions during every bank holiday, just the lost work days due to parents needing to take an extra 5 days off that they needn't would be justification enough economically.

To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't mind if it did move to non-term time, if I do go in to teaching even 58 days will seem like a lot of holidays compared to what I have been used to.

Exactly.

 

[Gammawolf]

I read "Incest Days"

That is all.

 

[RDM]

The economy loses billions during every bank holiday, just the lost work days due to parents needing to take an extra 5 days off that they needn't would be justification enough economically.

That doesn't make any sense, the parents would still take the days off, they just wouldn't take them on an inset day so the impact to the economy would be minimal.

 

[Castiel]

That doesn't make any sense, the parents would still take the days off, they just wouldn't take them on an inset day so the impact to the economy would be minimal.

Why would they?

If the days were integrated into the School holidays instead of in addition to, why on earth would they be taking more time off.

 

[Justintime]

My life has revolved around teachers, from my ex to my father and i work in a School. Lots of ignorance here about the amount of work teachers have, i see my dad marking papers all holiday, tons of meetings, he leaves work at 6pm most days even though classes over at 3, the stresses etc.. of the new policies implemented every year, cluess OFSTED people coming in and observing even though they can't teach a wet paper bag, yet still make demands and policies and the fact that most kids are little ££"$s makes me believe teachers aren't paid enough. People who don't know can sit on their armchair and bleat all day about their pay and holidays but would be reduced to tears within an hour in many classrooms.

 

[p4radox]

I don't think teachers are paid enough either. Yes, they get quite a lot of holiday, but when you see how much of that goes into marking/planning/admin stuff then it soon reduces in real terms.

Couple that with the fact that most kids are horrendous little scrotes who will make your life hell, and I think teachers quite deserve the extra holiday...

 

[kylew]

They should put inset days between print screen days and delete days.

HO HO HO.

I'm done.

I think you're thinking of the "insert" key.

 

[Ceryndrion]

I can only comment about the way that the college I used to teach at operated. There, I was only paid for classroom hours worked, which was only 19 hours a week (anything over 19 was considered full time). For that 19 hours, I had another 12 hours of preparation and marking, 4 hours of meetings and course administration and about 5 hours of other random things that were required, including making sure that all of my classroom equipment was kept in working order etc.

As for nice long summer holidays, well I certainly didn't get them, at the end of the academic year, all of their 'contract' staff, were laid off, and had to reapply for their jobs come september.

But.. the £15.42 an hour, was kinda nice I suppose.. at least until I looked at what I was actually getting paid..

Do teachers have too long for holidays, perhaps, but given the work that they do, I don't begrudge them. If you think that you can do better, feel free to undertake teacher training, and see what it is really like..



A friend of mine recently posted the following on facebook, when it boils down to it, its not far wrong..

"Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children

X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!)

WHAT A DEAL!!!!"

 

[Raymond Lin]

My life has revolved around teachers, from my ex to my father and i work in a School. Lots of ignorance here about the amount of work teachers have, i see my dad marking papers all holiday, tons of meetings, he leaves work at 6pm most days even though classes over at 3, the stresses etc.. of the new policies implemented every year, cluess OFSTED people coming in and observing even though they can't teach a wet paper bag, yet still make demands and policies and the fact that most kids are little ££"$s makes me believe teachers aren't paid enough. People who don't know can sit on their armchair and bleat all day about their pay and holidays but would be reduced to tears within an hour in many classrooms.

Almost all solicitors where i work does 9 hour days. Thats 8 to 6 even though the contract is 9-5. Some takes digital dictation machine home and work at night, and weekends.

Doctors and nurses gets assaulted by drunks every night around the country in all hospitals. Even carers get assaulted by elderly people who has dementia.


All jobs have stress (how about those in bomb squad?) all jobs have big policies.

Teachers are not an exception, why do people give them extra credit?

I don't think teachers are paid enough either. Yes, they get quite a lot of holiday, but when you see how much of that goes into marking/planning/admin stuff then it soon reduces in real terms.

Couple that with the fact that most kids are horrendous little scrotes who will make your life hell, and I think teachers quite deserve the extra holiday...

Again with the stress thing...

And the planning thing, you think teachers are the only people who does planning at home, and the only profession that takes work home.

I am not disputing the pay, i dont know why people bring that up. As far as i am concern, pay is relative. Do think Wayne Rooney deserve £200k a week? Ermmm no, but he gets that much. And pay is not te topic here, nor is the stress level.

We are talking about inset days and its impact on the rest of the population in terms of economics and impact because in my opinion teachers have plenty of holidays.

If you say teaches deserve more days off because of the stress then they can't handle the stress and really should find another profession.

 

[RDM]

Why would they?

If the days were integrated into the School holidays instead of in addition to, why on earth would they be taking more time off.

Because most people take their full allocation of holidays if they can at all help it? Hell I used to use the scheme my last employer had to allow me to buy extra holiday. So taking time off for inset days isn't taking extra time off (and therefore a cost) but taking days off at a different time than they would otherwise do so. You don't get five extra days holiday just for being a parent. (Actually, I got 10 days, but that was a one off and in the year of her birth. )

 

[RDM]

As far as i am concern, pay is relative.

As far as teachers are concerned maybe holidays are relative too?

 

[Castiel]

Because most people take their full allocation of holidays if they can at all help it? Hell I used to use the scheme my last employer had to allow me to buy extra holiday. So taking time off for inset days isn't taking extra time off (and therefore a cost) but taking days off at a different time than they would otherwise do so. You don't get five extra days holiday just for being a parent. (Actually, I got 10 days, but that was a one off and in the year of her birth. )

Uh???

If you have to take an extra 5 days per year to accommodate the 5 extra inset days then how is that not taking extra days?

If those days were incorporated into the Summer Holidays, instead of spread out across the year then it would be a simple matter of incorporating them into annual leave entitlement.

If you take the inset days as part of your holiday entitlement, you still need to accommodate the entire Summer Vacation period as well.

Currently Parents need to find provision for 13 weeks holiday plus 5 inset days. If the inset days were moved to the summer term they would then have 5 days less to find provision for, as they would already be providing some form of child-care, be it Holiday Entitlement or Child-Care of some form.

Either way it is 5 less days lost.

 

[Raymond Lin]

It sounds to me that teachers think they are the only profession who:

Has stress
Deal with difficult people
Work long hours
In physical danger
Get abusive clients
Work at home
Think they should be paid more
Has to deal with policies
Has meetings and planning

Lot of other professions does too, and they don't have half the holidays.

The important part is that you don't see them playing the "the kids are stressful" card every time the topic of pay or holiday comes up.