Tobacco and Duty

sanaxe1

sanaxe1

sanaxe1

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Ok after watching the budget and seeing that duty be increased once more by 2% + inflation there are no doubt that a lot of smokers are going to be pretty annoyed. Now the usual argument against the rises are that they are Net payers into the NHS. I cant remember the exact figures but its something like they cost the NHS £2billion a year but pay in £6billion in duty.

But i was thinking do they really pay extra to the NHS? As lets imagine if everyone suddenly quit smoking now. That money they saved from not smoking does not just disappear. It would simply be spent on alternative things maybe more fuel , Holidays and more entertainment amoung other things.
So after they purchase all these things the government will receive that money back through VAT , Corporation tax's and then taxing the company employees which your money paid for there wage. So in the end that £6billion in duty will just go back into the system but via a different method so they are not paying a net tax receipt for the NHS of £4billion but rather they are still costing £2billion as the money would have gone to the government/NHS budget in one way or anther anyway from the alternative purchases and taxations.

Is this thinking correct. If not why not?

( I would like to add that this has nothing to do with your freedom to do to your body as you wish but more about the fact that a popular argument is that they pay more to the NHS )
 
dont you pay far more taxs on ciggys than most other items? so the goverment wouldnt get anywhere near the same amount of tax if the smoker spent money on other items with less tax like fruit , dvd's etc?
 
without knowing exact figures arknor, i would say yes, not everyone in the country that smokes buy's dutied products, but everyone needs food, and unless they grow it themselves, duty and taxes would be paid on every item,
 
It is an easy way to get more money, it is also a good way to stop people from smoking the more it costs to smoke.
It's the same as speeding tickets, it's not to make the roads safer, it's an easy way to get money for us, if it was about safety they would only go to dangerous spots but they don't.

But don't smokers actually save us a lot of money in the long run with their lower life expectancy?
 
If they spend it on holiday like you say, and they go abroad to Ibiza and spend it on Tequila, the UK government won't get a penny.

And if they buy all that Tequila they're gonna be after an expensive liver transplant through the NHS before long ... :/
 
Seraph said:
without knowing exact figures arknor, i would say yes, not everyone in the country that smokes buy's dutied products, but everyone needs food, and unless they grow it themselves, duty and taxes would be paid on every item,
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its not on the same level though so if i spent 10k on ciggis i would be paying far more in tax than if i bought 10k worth of dvd's ?

someone who isnt lazy should do the maths ;)
 
Dutch Guy said:
But don't smokers actually save us a lot of money in the long run with their lower life expectancy?
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What like all the extra it costs the NHS to treat them, the less taxes they pay, not to add the cost to their family and love ones?
 
yeah if your looking at it from a personal point, my post was sort of generalised, same could be said for petrol, and almost to a point alcohol.

personal point and slightly off topic, but it's been leading me to believe the government are trying to remove peoples right to be stupid and make their own choices, smoking is bad for ya and everything, they would be royally buggered if everyone stopped smoking and driving their cars.
 
Bottom line is that tobacco duties outstrip tobacco-related care and treatment costs on a year-to-year basis.

My economics professor and I modelled it once, though the figures we sourced estimated around a £2 billion net cost to the NHS and a £10 billion government receipt from tobacco duties. If cigarettes were priced to internalise the external costs of smoking, the equitable price would be between £2.50 - £3.00.

But what can you do? Within the next year or so looks like my cartons of Marlboro Reds will be at £7. I'm on private medical care and private dental care, thus I cost neither of these groups a penny (in fact I'm a net contributor as I get hit by National Insurance AND fag duty). I get the pseudo-social reasons for smoking duties, smokers should pay their way in terms of health care and they are a health hazard (yes, there is debate as to how hazardous smoking is, but let's avoid it) but ultimately smoking duties at their current levels anger me purely because they are in direct contravention of personal economic liberty, of which I am a fervent supporter.
 
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simulatorman said:
What like all the extra it costs the NHS to treat them, the less taxes they pay, not to add the cost to their family and love ones?
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not always the truth do to with smoking, i had a grandmother died from cancer, she never smoked at all, my other one, smoked 60 per day for a good 40 years, died of old age, not sure exactly how that can apply to the public in general but i'm sure most things and figures the government state are make believe in some aspects
 
Brian8bit said:
I buy smuggled stuff because the tax on tobacco is obscene. **** HMRC.
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You know that a massive percentage of the "smuggled" stuff is actually fake and contains up to 50x the amount of toxins and harmful ingredients found in "legitimate" stuff?
That you'd be extremely hard pushed to tell the difference between the fake and the real stuff?

You're choice of course.

Your best bet is to make a trip to Belgium every once in a while.
You can legally bring back 3200 cigarettes - so take as many non-smokers with you as you like.
You pay on average £35 for 200 as opposed to the prices in the UK.
 
Seraph said:
not always the truth do to with smoking, i had a grandmother died from cancer, she never smoked at all, my other one, smoked 60 per day for a good 40 years, died of old age, not sure exactly how that can apply to the public in general but i'm sure most things and figures the government state are make believe in some aspects
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Yes, your two examples must be representative of the national averages, much more than the statistics gathered about, what was it now? oh yes, the national averages... :confused:
It's not a hard and fast rule, it's a general trend, smokers will die earlier and suffer more from "smoking related" illnesses.
And they smell.
 
Abraham said:
Yes, your two examples must be representative of the national averages, much more than the statistics gathered about, what was it now? oh yes, the national averages... :confused:
It's not a hard and fast rule, it's a general trend, smokers will die earlier and suffer more from "smoking related" illnesses.
And they smell.
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But we look cool.

...and we won't feel silly lying in a hospital bed, aged 98, dying of a healthy lifestyle.
 
stoofa said:
You know that a massive percentage of the "smuggled" stuff is actually fake and contains up to 50x the amount of toxins and harmful ingredients found in "legitimate" stuff?
That you'd be extremely hard pushed to tell the difference between the fake and the real stuff?
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Sounds like HMRC propaganda. I buy tobacco anyway. Not cigarettes.
 
A good friend of mine in Goa sends me two lots a year. £1.20 for Old Holborn 50g in the UK it's £11.00p :mad:
 
arknor said:
why dont some of you just grow your own tobbaco ? :O
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I've considered and looked into it. However once you start prepping it to be smoked, you're subject to HMRC fees. Though they say they won't target anyone growing it for themselves.... how do you know what constitutes enough for personal use for a years supply. Plus, prepping it for smoking takes weeks of curing.
 
arknor said:
why dont some of you just grow your own tobbaco ? :O
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If you want to avoid duty that much, it is much easier to spend £50 on a flight to Belguim and buy it for 1/3 of the price.

It can be done but the amount of space needed would be crazy, unlike other home grown substance that only needs an attic.
 
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