Intelligent life.

Tefal said:
it might do if we were separated long enough (think a colony planet with no contact with normal for thousands/millions of years).
Click to expand...

So, given that evolution is ongoing, we cannot predict that other life forms too would not be able to evolve further.

Is there any limit imposed to the extent of a species evolution? Can it go on forever.

If two species had an infinite amount of time, would they eventually become the same?
 
iirc (i'm sure nitefly will be along soon to post the link to the excellent post he made a while back on evolution) evolution has no end goal or design nor is it concious the mutations that benefit that animal right there and then and let it have more children who survive etc will be passed on and eventually spread throughout so as long as the situation is ever changing (which it will be due to things like sexual selection, ie a bird having a big red chest may not help it survive but it may get it a mate so the birds with the biggest red chests will be successful and thee species will end up with lots of red chests etc) they should keep changing forever.


If two species had an infinite amount of time, would they eventually become the same?
Click to expand...

maybe maybe not have a look at Darwin's finches they each changed to specialise on a certain type of food, that way they didn't end up competing with each other.

Also there's the random element of mutations etc.

or say one species females prefer to mate with males of a blue pigmination and the other species prefer yellow males they wont end up the same.
 
Tefal said:
iirc (i'm sure nitefly will be along soon to post the link to the excellent post he made a while back on evolution) evolution has no end goal or design nor is it concious the mutations that benefit that animal right there and then and let it have more children who survive etc will be passed on and eventually spread throughout so as long as the situation is ever changing (which it will be due to things like sexual selection, ie a bird having a big red chest may not help it survive but it may get it a mate so the birds with the biggest red chests will be successful and thee species will end up with lots of red chests etc) they should keep changing forever.




maybe maybe not have a look at Darwin's finches they each changed to specialise on a certain type of food, that way they didn't end up competing with each other.

Also there's the random element of mutations etc.

or say one species females prefer to mate with males of a blue pigmination and the other species prefer yellow males they wont end up the same.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking Earth time scales here my friend! Oh no. Infinite was the key word :p Strictly theoretically talking.

I know it has no goal or design. But we cannot answer whether it has an end product. Or can we? I suppose this was my original question. You'll have to forgive me. One too many jacket potatoes has left me feeling a little baked.
 
meghatronic said:
Patronising aside: The whole point of [Darwinian] evolution is that it's random. (Rather, mutations are random that if they manifest as desirable traits these are passed on). So we don't "evolve" in a conscious way.... E.g., if we were without light, we wouldn't "evolve" an ability to see in the dark. One lucky individual might, and they'd have babies etc... So I can see why you meant it's contrary to evolution. Only, it's not. It certainly isn't evolution, but one could argue that our evolved intelligence has facilitated us to adapt the environment to our needs. The classic example is clothing kept us warm, limiting our need for body hair.
Click to expand...

Was it that way around? I've read that one possibility is that humans have relatively very little body hair because doing it enabled better shedding of heat, a definite survival advantage for the kind of hunting that our far ancestors did in Africa.
 
Castiel said:
Not at all, but is everything totally random or, like the universe itself, does evolution follow a specific set of rules and when the circumstances present in a specific way shouldn't we see more than one instance of it.

Why do all the Planets, Suns, Moons etc all rotate the same way?
Click to expand...

They don't. Venus, for example, rotates in almost completely the opposite direction.

If you're talking about the direction of orbit, it's because they were formed from the same rotating cloud. Conservation of angular momentum - it was rotating before, therefore the bits of it are rotating afterwards.
 
Superewza said:
Maybe intelligence isn't necessarily a useful evolutionary trait?

Besides, we aren't the only ones we would classify as sentient anyway, are we?Neanderthals? And isn't there a theory that some people from around Asia are from a different evolutionary branch altogether?
Click to expand...

That hypothesis was disproven a while back by DNA analysis on a large enough scale. It was thought by some people that Chinese people had descended from homo erectus seperately to people elsewhere, but the genetic evidence shows they're the same homo sapiens as everyone else.

There were several hominid species that might have been what we would call intelligent. No way to be sure, though, as the last of them died out ~20,000 years ago. If indeed they were different species - how do you draw the line?
 
Intelligence is a necessary trait for evolution. It gives us the opportunity to take evolution into our own hands and only the species that adapt the quickest...survive.

Medicine is a prime example of what I'm talking about. No other animal on the planet can use their intelligence to combat illness. We change our 'fate' at will and we are rapidly increasing our ability to combat what ever gets in our way.
 
There's a good book called How Homo Became Sapiens: On The Evolution Of Thinking that's sort of a semi-scientific, semi-speculative attempt by the author to look at how human intelligence developed and how other animals share many of these 'modules' of intelligence to different degrees, but how as we grow from babies onwards, we equal and surpass them (as long as we're bought up among other humans!)

As for anything else developing a similar level of intelligence given the right time/conditions, it's hard to say. We've altered the world in such a way that I think it would be difficult for anything else to have a go, and even then who knows the passage of time or conditions needed. Intelligent life emerging from a natural ecosystem may/might not be an inevitability, the only way to know would be to have the ability to observe another world(s) for the duration of it's existence when conditions are life-sustaining and let it play out, or meet all dem aliens (both equally unlikely given the distances/time scales involved).

IMO however unlikely the odds are, it still only needs to happen once for the ball to get rolling, which is why I'd err on the side of optimism. Whether anywhere else is the right distance from the galatic core so that DNA doesn't get smashed by cosmic rays or whatever, the right distance from the right type of sun and whatever other variables we can throw it... well, who knows how many in a hundred billion that is too.
 
Humans have super dooper rapidly evolved since the end of the last series of ice ages.

I don't think its completely unfeasible that there has not been other pre industrial sentient species on earth that are since completely and utterly eradicated from History and the geological record. It would be like finding a needle in haystack.

That and Alien intervention...............

I guess it was agriculture that really started it all. When a species takes control of its food supply on such an impressive level it can easily begin to procreate rapidly. Only other animal that does it i can think of is that crazy Ant that breeds fungus in its nest.

But ill go with the Darwinian Randomness theory over all. An incredibly lucky coincidence that is a mere blip on the horizon in an epic timescale.
 
goodnighttillitbemorrow.jpg
 
Last edited:
Angilion said:
They don't. Venus, for example, rotates in almost completely the opposite direction.

If you're talking about the direction of orbit, it's because they were formed from the same rotating cloud. Conservation of angular momentum - it was rotating before, therefore the bits of it are rotating afterwards.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I didn't know that Venus rotated clockwise.

After investigation I've found that is the exception, almost every other celestial body in the Solar system, from Planets to Moons to Asteroids rotate the same way.

The reason Cosmologists and Astronomers give for Venus having a retrograde rotation is that is was likely hit by an asteroid early in its creation, the same applies to Uranus which may or may not have a retrograde spin depending on it's angle of inclination.
 
Castiel said:
Thanks, I didn't know that Venus rotated clockwise.

After investigation I've found that is the exception, almost every other celestial body in the Solar system, from Planets to Moons to Asteroids rotate the same way.

The reason Cosmologists and Astronomers give for Venus having a retrograde rotation is that is was likely hit by an asteroid early in its creation, the same applies to Uranus which may or may not have a retrograde spin depending on it's angle of inclination.
Click to expand...

Aye but the rotations can always change as well naturally. When Andromeda collides with us mavity will play its part in flinging both galaxies in all manner of directions (accurate simulation models exist showing how) so in ~3 billion years time if our solar system survives this cosmic event, our planets will likely be spinning in much more different directions or orbiting an entirely new star as we become part of a new galaxy cluster.

It's all to do with mavity :p
 
Castiel said:
Ok, I accept why we are in the position we are in, that is not really what I am getting at though.

Why are we the only ones?

why hasn't another species evolved with similar skilss at communication, opposable thumbs (or some equivalent) and so?

Why only one species?



Again, why only one though. Surely other species have had the potential to evolve as we have?



I think that the mastery of fire was because of our intelligence and not the cause of it.
Click to expand...

Other intelligent life did evolve but was wiped out, neanderthals existed side by side with homosapians for a long time, but were either diseased or killed off by homosapians who overtook them. There was a time when two seperate beings existed though.
 

Because we humped everything more often than other species.

And mutation took it's course, or evolution, if you want.
 
Castiel said:
Thanks, I didn't know that Venus rotated clockwise.

After investigation I've found that is the exception, almost every other celestial body in the Solar system, from Planets to Moons to Asteroids rotate the same way.
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what would be expected if the solar system formed in the way it is currently thought to have formed, from a rotating cloud of less dense matter shrinking and clumping together.

The asteroids and moons that rotate the other way are all small enough to have had their rotation reversed relatively easily. The moons might well have been asteroids that were captured by planets - they're all very small moons.

The reason Cosmologists and Astronomers give for Venus having a retrograde rotation is that is was likely hit by an asteroid early in its creation, the same applies to Uranus which may or may not have a retrograde spin depending on it's angle of inclination.
Click to expand...

The impact hypothesis is the best explanation at the moment. Hell of a force needed to reverse the rotation of a fairly sizeable planet, though.

If it wasn't an impact, what other explanations are possible?

The model for stellar system formation is somehow wrong? It fits all the available evidence.

Some smaller force slowed Venus over time and then spun it back up the other way? What force could that be?
 
Angilion said:
W
If it wasn't an impact, what other explanations are possible?

The model for stellar system formation is somehow wrong? It fits all the available evidence.

Some smaller force slowed Venus over time and then spun it back up the other way? What force could that be?
Click to expand...

I don't recall questioning the explanation....:confused:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom