March in London on the 26th?

[scorza]

Maybe you should consider reading some sources:



The criticism isn't just coming from me, or the Tories. What he did was a tragic error, not only in attending, but also what he said.

Behave, I've read a lot of support for Milliband's speech as well as criticism coming from old NuLabour types who can't understand why the party doesn't want Blair 2.0.

Also, economic apartheid is a logical fallacy (appealing to emotion). Not least as apartheid is a race-related term. I have several friends in Hull, Liverpool and Bradford, from the unemployed to doctors. None have complained about cleansing and killings yet.

The literal meaning of apartheid is separateness, I think is entirely appropriate to draw comparisons. If you can afford to live in an affluent Tory area you get preferential treatment from the state and a higher quality of life, if you can't then you suffer from absence of public services, higher crime, generally intolerable life. Pretty much what apartheid was all about.

 

[HEADRAT]

I don't disagree that the Police have a difficult job, it's just that their terms and conditions like many other Public sector workers seem to be from a different time and are completely out of step with the Private sector.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Soldiers get shot at, and earn considerably less.... So... yeah.....

For which they should be paid more.

At Headrat, the police service is not a private sector industry though. Should it really be compared with the private sector ?

 

[HEADRAT]

For which they should be paid more.

Surely if you chose a certain profession you have to accept certain aspects of the job!

Should it really be compared with the private sector ?

It it comes out of my taxes then I want value for money, I don't want it keeping people in work with terms and conditions that most of us couldn't dream of.

HEADRAT

 

[meghatronic]

The literal meaning of apartheid is separateness, I think is entirely appropriate to draw comparisons. If you can afford to live in an affluent Tory area you get preferential treatment from the state and a higher quality of life, if you can't then you suffer from absence of public services, higher crime, generally intolerable life. Pretty much what apartheid was all about.

I can't find your 'literal' meaning in the English dictionary (reference or google). Given the rest of your sentence was not Afrikaans, I'm going to stand by my "you're using a logical fallacy of appealing to emotion' statement. In fact, I think all you can do is use logical fallacies, and craziness (if you supported Red Ed's speech). I think it is incredibly offensive to associate the scaling back of public services with the Apartheid struggle. It's deeply worrying.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Too right it isn't :-

http://www.policebenefits.co.uk/pension_scheme/pension/pps_guide.html

you can retire on a full pension after 30 years of service for most people that's a dream, work from 20 and retire at 50, yes please.

HEADRAT

If it's such a good deal then may I suggest:-

http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/

 

[meghatronic]

For which they should be paid more.

At Headrat, the police service is not a private sector industry though. Should it really be compared with the private sector ?

As I said above, I support the police/nurses/soldiers/etc. getting paid more. But I think a lot of perks (not all) need to be brought in line with the rest of us. So I think a comparison is fair.

 

[Naffa]

Behave, I've read a lot of support for Milliband's speech as well as criticism coming from old NuLabour types who can't understand why the party doesn't want Blair 2.0.

I assume you supported any potential leader, bar David Miliband, then? I have had so many arguments with Labour party supporters that said they would leave the party if he won, but the reality is that is was, and remains, the only credible leader of the party. The supporters just don't realise that it's only with a Blair 2.0 that the party could maintain any credibility, or do you think you'd do better with a Kinnock 2.0, which is what you have at the moment?

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Rubbish, I just don't see how those in the public sector can hope to be insulated from the pain <SNIP>

A fair proportion of those at the march were private sector employees (and not just those "ex civil-service privatised" many have only ever worked in the private sector).

 

[Danthus]

It it comes out of my taxes then I want value for money, I don't want it keeping people in work with terms and conditions that most of us couldn't dream of.

HEADRAT

I assume you support a complete overhaul of the welfare system then?

 

[Deleted member 66701]

or do you think you'd do better with a Kinnock 2.0, which is what you have at the moment?

My hope for Labour died when John Smith departed this world.

 

[HEADRAT]

I assume you support a complete overhaul of the welfare system then?

I support the realisation that we just can't afford to stay as we were, you just don't have the TAX receipts to support it, unless we just borrow beyond our means ad infinitum.

http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/

Oh please, the Police do a good job on the whole, doesn't mean I want to be one

HEADRAT

 

[Danthus]

I support the realisation that we just can't afford to stay as we were, you just don't have the TAX receipts to support it, unless we just borrow beyond our means ad infinitum.

HEADRAT

A point most sensible people support. Saying that the welfare budget is roughly £200 billion, an horrendous amount.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Surely if you chose a certain profession you have to accept certain aspects of the job!

Indeed and I did when I joined. I do want a good pension at the end of it though.

It it comes out of my taxes then I want value for money, I don't want it keeping people in work with terms and conditions that most of us couldn't dream of.

HEADRAT

Policing isn't a utopia though. There are many unpleasant aspects to it although I don't want to sound condescending in saying that.

Pay is decent as are overtime rates. I accept that things will change with cuts but the pension I signed on the line for I will fight to keep.

 

[HEADRAT]

. I accept that things will change with cuts but the pension I signed on the line for I will fight to keep.

As would I believe me, I'm just not sure it's a fight you will win but I support you trying. I'm just not sure as a Country we can support the "Golden Pensions" seen in the Private sector, we're going to have a generation of people working until they drop to support Private sectors workers resigning at 50, it's untenable

HEADRAT

 

[scorza]

I assume you supported any potential leader, bar David Miliband, then? I have had so many arguments with Labour party supporters that said they would leave the party if he won, but the reality is that is was, and remains, the only credible leader of the party. The supporters just don't realise that it's only with a Blair 2.0 that the party could maintain any credibility, or do you think you'd do better with a Kinnock 2.0, which is what you have at the moment?

No I thought Andy Burnham was the best candidate - David Milliband and Dianne Abbot were the worst. Not being a member or supporter of the Labour party however I didn't get a vote.

It makes me laugh when people criticise Ed Milliband for only being elected Labour leader because of the unions. The Labour party is supposed to be about supporting the unions - it was created for that purpose. The problem with people like Blair and David Milliband is that while they might appeal to middle England, Daily Mail readers - they are essentially hold the centre-right ground that the Conservatives hold and has proved so dangerous to this country's interests. Since 2007 the centre ground has moved to the left, but the government has stayed where it is - I still think if Labour can avoid the damaging in-fighting that has cost them in the past, they will win the next general election.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

IPay is decent as are overtime rates. I accept that things will change with cuts but the pension I signed on the line for I will fight to keep.

I am sure you'll get to keep the pension; you'll just need to contribute to it.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I still think if Labour can avoid the damaging in-fighting that has cost them in the past, they will win the next general election.

I think they'll win the next election - doen't mean I'll vote for them, at least not in thier current state.

In 4 years time, the Tories, if they carry on down this path, will basically be unelectable and out of power for a generation.

I just hope to God there is a creditable alternative by then. I voted Lib Dem (in the abscence of a Green Party candidate) at the last election - 1st and last time for those bunch of liars/turncoats.

 

[Danthus]

No I thought Andy Burnham was the best candidate - David Milliband and Dianne Abbot were the worst. Not being a member or supporter of the Labour party however I didn't get a vote.

It makes me laugh when people criticise Ed Milliband for only being elected Labour leader because of the unions. The Labour party is supposed to be about supporting the unions - it was created for that purpose. The problem with people like Blair and David Milliband is that while they might appeal to middle England, Daily Mail readers - they are essentially hold the centre-right ground that the Conservatives hold and has proved so dangerous to this country's interests. Since 2007 the centre ground has moved to the left, but the government has stayed where it is - I still think if Labour can avoid the damaging in-fighting that has cost them in the past, they will win the next general election.

Should the Labour party support the unions even when the stance they take is damaging?

 

[Naffa]

No I thought Andy Burnham was the best candidate - David Milliband and Dianne Abbot were the worst. Not being a member or supporter of the Labour party however I didn't get a vote.

It makes me laugh when people criticise Ed Milliband for only being elected Labour leader because of the unions. The Labour party is supposed to be about supporting the unions - it was created for that purpose. The problem with people like Blair and David Milliband is that while they might appeal to middle England, Daily Mail readers - they are essentially hold the centre-right ground that the Conservatives hold and has proved so dangerous to this country's interests. Since 2007 the centre ground has moved to the left, but the government has stayed where it is - I still think if Labour can avoid the damaging in-fighting that has cost them in the past, they will win the next general election.

It criticise him for only gaining a majority of any kind in the fourth round of votes, based off of Ed Balls' second preferences. I would disagree (as would they) that both Tony and David are politicians of the centre right. And as for the infighting, you're going to be disappointed as there are already rumours of a coup being planned.

The main problem with Ed's victory being because of the union vote is that it shows he was unable to command the support of a majority of Labour party MPs or grass roots members. This means he has less support in the PLP than, say, his older brother. That paired with the fact he has been absolutely shocking in nigh on every respect since becoming leader, does not fill me with confidence that he will be leading the party to a prosperous, stable and united future.