Dutch Ritual Slaughter Ban a Step Closer

So after watching that video im left with a couple of questions.

When the animals are thrashing about is that because they can feel pain and are simply responding or is that involuntary, sort of like a spasm?

Stunning an animal, does that paralyze or kill the animal? Apparently it is unknown whether the animal is concious or not using this method...
Watching the video they stunned the animal but did not kill it straight away which gives it a chance to regain conciousness but still be paralyzed according to the link below.

http://www.hedweb.com/hillman/animpain.htm

Was a pretty interesting read.

I think the animal feels pain with either method, stunning and then cutting the throat looks like the most humane method as the stun has a chance to kill the animal or at least render it unconcious before having its throat cut.
 
Castiel said:
It must not be dead, it is because the blood needs to be drain, obviously this is not possible with a dead carcass. Stunning is acceptable as long as the animal does not die prior to slaughter.
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Don't see any problem then.
It was a clean way to kill meat, and ensured fresh meat, meaning the knew where it came from back in the day.
 
I don't see the problem with stunning it and then cutting the throat, as long as the stunning did not kill the animal.

If the cutting of the throat meant a painless, cleaner way of slaughtering (Cleaner as in draining the blood), then wheres the problem?

Seems pretty humane to me =/
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
Don't see any problem then.
It was a clean way to kill meat, and ensured fresh meat, meaning the knew where it came from back in the day.
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There isn't any problem in the UK with about 90% of halal prepared meat, in fact commercial slaughter has about the same percentage of slaughter not meeting regulations on animal welfare.

What we in this country need to do is too require Halal (and Kosher) to stun the animal prior to the slaughter, and also we can learn from Halal producers in that the welfare in Animal Husbandry for Halal is superior to many commercial farming techniques.

There is an issue in the UK with Kosher meat as afaik none is yet stunned prior to slaughter and it doesn't have the same welfare requirements in husbandry and rearing that Halal does. Maybe someone may know more about Kosher than I do.

Unfortunately like many things no-one wants to learn anything, they just want to exercise their prejudices instead.
 
Orcish-Horde said:
Watch link jak731 posted.
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I've seen that video before, bit different from this isnt it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da5RgVBSbVs

so tell me, what video do you think is closer to Dhabīḥah ? there's a reason those faces are covered up in that video jak731 posted you know. I am aware that there are slaughter houses that take the ****, halal or not, but come on they arent all like that. I am all for slaughtering as humanely as possible and yes i am absolutely against practices like those in that video jak731 posted. the cows in that video are not killed quickly, or cleanly.

longbow said:
james.miller said:
in most countries they are stunned first.
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In Holland? If so then why are Holland proposing a law to make it a legal requirement?
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they arent? :confused: Holland are proposing a ban on halal-style slaughtering. The stunning of the animals before hand wasn't mentioned and is irrelevant. it's the style of killing they are trying to ban which i dont particularly agree with.
 
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chaosdestro0 said:
It's best to keep Morals to empathy + society, and facts to books that do not require interpretations. Otherwise you are going to make a lot of mistakes.
Islam sadly does not have the best track record regarding agreeing with western morals, a stud a few years ago shows that 62% of British Muslims hold the opinion that free speech should be limited to stop people criticising religion.
Sauce
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How do you think societies were formed to begin with?

How do you think that moralistic laws were enforced on populations without massive standing armies?

How do you think Western Culture got to where it is?

How long do you think the interregnum after the fall of the Roman Empire in Europe would have lasted if not for the unifying nature of religion?

Your problem is that you are looking at society as it is today, with all the social and legal apparatus needed to enforce laws, morals and social welfare already in place.

Remove religion from society today and you are right, not much would change....for a while at least. Remove religion from society prior to the 19th century and you have a whole new ballgame.


Anyway back on topic......


http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Sat...PCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true


and the prior thread from SC:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18188359&highlight=halal

and another:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18196590&highlight=halal

and another:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18171854&highlight=halal

and another:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18116692&highlight=halal.


Maybe given that we now have a cuisine sub-forum and a Sailing/watersports sub-forum a Religion and Philosophy sub-forum could be added. It may negate some of the repetition and if people don't want to participate they don't have to frequent that specific forum and it may be easier to moderate.

Maybe one of the Admins or Spie can give us a decision?
 
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Spawn said:
Yep i guess moving forward is now banning certain people from practising certain functions of their religion right??...the west is slowly becoming draconian with the french banning the burkha and now holland banning kosher and halal slaughter techniques....the worst thing is the people who rail against this are quite happy to sit in an indian curry house and actually eat the meat they are so vehemently against...99% of curry houses in this country are halal;)...such utter hypocrites....oh and lets not forget the good old subwaychain where again most if not all their meat is halal....quite mind boggling to see peoples reactions and their actions lol lol.
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I don't give a dam about meat to be honest. My point is, that religion is a complete and utter waste of everyones time and resources.

So yes I would count banning these things as moving forward.
 
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I'm not fussed on the slaughter method at all.

What gets me is the exceptions for religion. If the authorities state slaughter requires the animal to be stunned prior to doing so then religion should have to sing from the same sheet as everyone else.

Religious motive or otherwise I could not care less, rules are rules.

If however Holland has no rules you cannot ban a practice just because of the practice. Especially not when anyone else is doing pretty much the same thing, just not under the guise of religious motive.
 
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EdGey said:
I don't give a dam about meat to be honest. My point is, that religion is a complete and utter waste of everyones time and resources.

So yes I would count banning these things as moving forward.
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Banning things like Religion isn't going forward though, it is going backward.

The idea is to encourage people to adopt better practices within their belief systems, be it by interpreting their scripture more moderately, to changing doctrine and tradition which is really what all the fuss is about most of the the time and a lot of that is cultural and not from scripture anyway.

There have been some very high profile attempts at removing religion from secular societies, specifically Russia under Stalin and China under Mao.
 
I'm far from educated enough to make this kind of statement, but from what I have seen the world would be a better place without religion.

I know it will never happen, and so we have learned to accept and get along with it.

But looking at it from a simple point of view. 1 book full of lies and made up crap is burned, and 11 UN workers are killed as a result. Where is the need for it?

Just seems to me that religion does nothing but distract people from reality, and give people an excuse to fight.

Can o' worms I know :)
 
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lttlejoe said:
“Our Jewish community feels very shocked. We have been here in the Netherlands for four hundred years and we see this new law against ritual slaughter as an infringement of our constitutional religious rights.”

As an avid meat eater I feel like a bit of a hipoctite by criticising how others slaughter their animals but, when it becomes a religious ritual, it's time for the practice to go ...preferably with the religion closely following!

How anyone in the 21st century can actually still believe in such primitive beliefs is beyond comprehension. That is one law I'd like to see implemented throughout the Common Market at the very least!
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Hurray for religious intolerance. What's worse, the people with conviction in their faith, or the bigots like you and the others who '+1' your post? It's just a method of preparing food for Christ's sake.

Why don't you go sit down and read some more Daily Mail.

EdGey said:
I'm far from educated enough to make this kind of statement, but from what I have seen the world would be a better place without religion.

I know it will never happen, and so we have learned to accept and get along with it.

But looking at it from a simple point of view. 1 book full of lies and made up crap is burned, and 11 UN workers are killed as a result. Where is the need for it?

Just seems to me that religion does nothing but distract people from reality, and give people an excuse to kill.

Can of worms I know :)
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Using religion as an excuse =! religion

You should know better than this, that these are a tiny fractional minority amongst literally billions of believers who live and let live, unlike some.
 
EdGey said:
I'm far from educated enough to make this kind of statement, but from what I have seen the world would be a better place without religion.

I know it will never happen, and so we have learned to accept and get along with it.

But looking at it from a simple point of view. 1 book full of lies and made up crap is burned, and 11 UN workers are killed as a result. Where is the need for it?

Just seems to me that religion does nothing but distract people from reality, and give people an excuse to kill.

Can of worms I know :)
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The problem is the Qu'ran is hardly a book of lies, it is a philosophical and theological work, nothing more, nothing less. How people interpret that is up to them, however we have some ignorant idiot in Florida who burns something that he knows means a lot to a specific section of the community, then some other idiots take offence for no other reason than it suits their political agenda and set to killing people using that as an excuse.

If we remove religion from that equation, then what we have if some ignoramus in Florida burning something else that means a lot some people, and then some of those people using that as an excuse to kill people for their political ideology using the item (whatever it is) as the justification for it.

Religion is not Evil, or Good it is simply a social tool, and how it is used be it for good or ill, is entirely the decision of the men that use it for justifying those acts.

Removing religion will accomplish exactly nothing, because some other justification will replace it and religion is self limiting in what you can justify with it, the same it not true of secular ideologies such as Maoism and Stalinism, the controls are set by the arbiter of the atrocities and not by some interpretation of scripture.

Basically religion is in many ways self limiting and what might replace it could in all likelihood be far far worse. Pardon the pun, but sometimes it really is Better the Devil you know.
 
Good post.

So if religion is their social tool, and way of justifying things. What would you say was our social tool in the UK?

I know there are many religious people in the UK, but not nearly enough to have the same effect, so would you say we were influenced by something different?

Just food for thought really, I havn't a clue what takes the place of religion in me.
 
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If you had two rashers of Bacon, one Halal/Kosher and the other one not, then any Muslim or Jew would not be able to tell which was which while eating them..OH! Wait.

LolReligion.
 
One for the biology experts:

When the knife goes straight through the throat and the head is basically falling off is the animal in any pain now even though it's twitching?
 
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