ECHR interfere in British Soverignty...

Castiel said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...for-prisoners-must-be-fought-all-the-way.html



Let us put to one side the issue of prisoner voting rights and consider the ECHR itself.


Should the ECHR, an unelected, unaccountable judiciary be able to dictate law making to an elected, accountable and democratic Government?

Should our own domestic lawmakers and judiciary always have precedence over rulings emanating out of Europe?

I have to agree with the Telegraph, we should draw a line in the sand and refuse to curtail to any more enforced judgements from Europe, be it the ECHR or otherwise.

What say OCuk.......
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The idea of Europe paying for something like 40 different parliaments is retarded.

If we worked together we'd whip America for standard of life within about 10 years. Working apart, we work longer hours, and enjoy less than half the spending power they have.

It's retarded. We could be a super-power. We could be the most powerful super-power in the world, and have a massively high standard of life. But oh-no. We .. er .. don't like the .. er .. Portugese. so let's work against them just for the lolz. Marvellous.
 
britboy4321 said:
The idea of Europe paying for something like 40 different parliaments is retarded.

If we worked together we'd whip America for standard of life within about 10 years. Working apart, we work longer hours, and enjoy less than half the spending power they have.

It's retarded. We could be a super-power. We could be the most powerful super-power in the world, and have a massively high standard of life. But oh-no. We .. er .. don't like the .. er .. Portugese. so let's work against them just for the lolz. Marvellous.
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But then we are talking about a single sovereign state, just a very large federal one.

I wouldnt necessarily disagree with that kind of superstate, depending on the implimentation.
 
Nitefly said:
I fully agree with your last paragraph. I really, really hate coming accross as jerk-ish as I might have done in this thread. I usually try to spend as much time as possible explaining my possition or my view point, as I tend to do with evolution, but with the EU there is a political spin that makes it very hard indeed to people to change their opinions. This is further confounded by the fact that contrary to popular belief, the EU is very complicated and it is not easy to understand at all.
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Just present facts to people, if they do not accept it you know not to waste [as much] time next time as they are irrational.

I didn't think popular belief was that the EU was simple and easy to understand?

:confused:
 
britboy4321 said:
The idea of Europe paying for something like 40 different parliaments is retarded.

If we worked together we'd whip America for standard of life within about 10 years. Working apart, we work longer hours, and enjoy less than half the spending power they have.

It's retarded. We could be a super-power. We could be the most powerful super-power in the world, and have a massively high standard of life. But oh-no. We .. er .. don't like the .. er .. Portugese. so let's work against them just for the lolz. Marvellous.
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Why should the productive countries cover up the difference for the less succesfull ones?

The cold war is over. Europe isn't needed.
 
Castiel said:
I know you take a great deal of time to impart your knowledge, and nothing I said was aimed at you personally.

Whether you take someone seriously or not, explaining their error should be the first point of call, if they still disregard that, then dismiss their opinion.
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I agree.

I can't really add much more to this thread, other than to say I can take a lot of potshots at the EU... in particular the way the ECJ decides cases willy nilly, it is a total joke for the English lawyer. They seem to imply they have due regard to prior cases, but in reality they just seem to make it up as they go along and they frequently do. This is of course more in line with continental law, but I'm not a fan of pretending that case law is consistant when it definitely is not :p

Kedge/cosmogenesis anyone? ;)
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*shudder* :eek:
 
Biohazard said:
Just present facts to people, if they do not accept it you know not to waste [as much] time next time as they are irrational.
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I think I would have to produce a large dossier to convince anyone the EU was a good thing :p

There are many books that document the EU but I thought this one was pretty good:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/01992190...de=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=0199219079

Sadly it doesn't contain the newest info on the Lisbon treaty AFAIK (TLT rejigged quite a lot), but it does contain a lot about the EUs expansion. I'm not sure what the newest and most comprehensive books are sadly.

I can't lie, there are more interesting things I could suggest to read :p
 
Strife212 said:
lol.
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Name something America has which if you consider the whole of Europe as a single entity we don't. Europe beats America at natural resources, population levels, educational ability, cultural diversity, history, military might, production, work ethic, holiday destinations, people being able to stay thin, JEES, EVERYTHING.


Now consider the fact that America has over DOUBLE the economic wealth per capita than us. Yep, your clone in the US is earning TWICE your wage for the same amount of work.


Now, for 10 points and a chance to go for the car .. why exactly is that? We work just as hard - we get half the money. Do you like that? Does that seem cool to you because god forbid a single body works in the interest of Europe rather than 65 separate paid bodies compete with each other hand-over-fist for their little 'big of Europe'?


If we were already a single state, the idea of all splitting up and scrapping everything out individually area by area and never really being able to act as a unit, kinda on anything, would seem totally retarded, EXACTLY like if you suggest to an American you split up the USA because South Dakota isn't as rich as California so why not run them as two entirely different countries!!!!!
 
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britboy4321 said:
Name something America has which if you consider the whole of Europe as a single entity we don't. Europe beats America at natural resources, population levels, educational ability, cultural diversity, history, military might, production, work ethic, JEES, EVERYTHING.


Now consider the fact that America has over DOUBLE the economic wealth per capita than us. Yep, your clone in the US is earning TWICE your wage for the same amount of work.


Now, for 10 points and a chance to go for the car .. why exactly is that? We work just as hard - we get half the money. Do you like that? Does that seem cool to you?
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Mainly because the US have far inferior social support services than Europe.

No universal healthcare, limited unemployment support, huge social problems like homelessness and poverty.

The US is nothing to aspire to.
 
britboy4321 said:
Name something America has which if you consider the whole of Europe as a single entity we don't. Europe beats America at natural resources, population levels, educational ability, cultural diversity, history, military might, production, work ethic, holiday destinations, people being able to stay thin, JEES, EVERYTHING.


Now consider the fact that America has over DOUBLE the economic wealth per capita than us. Yep, your clone in the US is earning TWICE your wage for the same amount of work.


Now, for 10 points and a chance to go for the car .. why exactly is that? We work just as hard - we get half the money. Do you like that? Does that seem cool to you because god forbid a single body works in the interest of Europe rather than 65 separate paid bodies compete with each other hand-over-fist for their little 'big of Europe'?


If we were already a single state, the idea of all splitting up and scrapping everything out individually area by area and never really being able to act as a unit, kinda on anything, would seem totally retarded, EXACTLY like if you suggest to an American you split up the USA because South Dakota isn't as rich as California so why not run them as two entirely different countries!!!!!
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All using a different language.

It would be forced, the "European Superstate" would have no culture or history.

Some of the countries in Europe are pretty crap and would need bailing out and would leech funds from UK/France/Germany.
 
Castiel said:
Mainly because the US have far inferior social support services than Europe.

No universal healthcare, limited unemployment support, huge social problems like homelessness and poverty.

The US is nothing to aspire to.
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Some parts of Europe have less social support than the US, some have more.

The fact is, money and standard of life alone, the US is THRASHING all us Europeans. And as a single entity we beat them on everything required to improve our economic standard of life. But for decade after decade after decade they have nicer houses, better cars, better economic lives. They don't work harder. Surely you don't think it's right? Surely you don't think it's fair?? So what is the big difference between Europe and the US? THE STATES WORK TOGETHER, RATHER THAN FIGHTING EACH OTHER.

But, indeed, I guess you could argue .. we have a British bloke we voted for rather than a European we voted for, yup some British guy spending hours arguing with a different part of Europe over fishing rights (an argument that can of course never be settled as both parties are committed to defending their states ABOVE REASON). Hoorah. That makes the fact I have a rubbish economic life compared to my US counter-part, despite working as hard and having MORE natural resources etc, absolutely fine then :/

TBH, really deep down, it's actually ugly old racism that hurts us every single day of our lives .. and the average Joe driving a 8 year old beat-up Ford rather than a 3 year old Mercedes will never even realise how much his hatred of letting someone speak for the whole of Europe that god-forbid isn't English has actually cost him and will cost him every day for the rest of his life :/
 
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britboy4321 said:
TBH, really deep down, it's actually ugly old racism that hurts us every single day of our lives .. and the average Joe driving a 8 year old beat-up Ford rather than a 3 year old Mercedes will never even realise how much his hatred of letting someone speak for the whole of Europe has actually cost him :/
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wot?
 
Nitefly said:
Regulations are directly binding in member states with no further implementation necessary.

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/introduction/what_regulation_en.htm
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Sorry just saw this Nitefly. :o

Yes, 'feedback' imposed regulations are a byproduct of the European state. That isn’t the contention.

The laws enacted by our Government for us to cede power in the first place are not viable under the 'auspices' of the sovereignty of Parliament. Westminster cannot bind to a successor, even taking in consideration consent - which there is none.

Any Act of Government is built upon the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament, we can't pick and choose when we accept and bide by this constitutional and legal concept.

It is a total farse. But then again so is most of the UK’s constitution also.

Westminster is a 'perfect' imperial beast in such the way it was created, and the only way to constitutionally get around it is to dissolve itself or for it to be conquered.
 
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britboy4321 said:
Some parts of Europe have less social support than the US, some have more.

The fact is, money and standard of life alone, the US is THRASHING all us Europeans. And as a single entity we beat them on everything required to improve our economic standard of life. But for decade after decade after decade they have nicer houses, better cars, better economic lives. They don't work harder. Surely you don't think it's right? Surely you don't think it's fair?? So what is the big difference between Europe and the US? THE STATES WORK TOGETHER, RATHER THAN FIGHTING EACH OTHER.

But, indeed, I guess you could argue .. we have a British bloke we voted for rather than a European we voted for, yup some British guy spending hours arguing with a different part of Europe over fishing rights (an argument that can of course never be settled as both parties are committed to defending their states ABOVE REASON). Hoorah. That makes the fact I have a rubbish economic life compared to my US counter-part, despite working as hard and having MORE natural resources etc, absolutely fine then :/

TBH, really deep down, it's actually ugly old racism that hurts us every single day of our lives .. and the average Joe driving a 8 year old beat-up Ford rather than a 3 year old Mercedes will never even realise how much his hatred of letting someone speak for the whole of Europe that god-forbid isn't English has actually cost him and will cost him every day for the rest of his life :/
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Sorry... Have to ask but have you ever been to the US?

The average person certainly isn't driving around in 3 year old Mercs... They have bigger houses (partly because they are cheaper to build and partly because they have more space). They have bigger cars, mostly because they are US made and cheap (generally lower quality), even then it's not that clear cut, just a quick look on wiki suggests:

According to this study the majority of vehicles, 60.6%, of vehicles were older than seven years in 2001....In March 2009, RL Polk released a study conducted between 2007 to 2008 which indicated that the median age of passenger cars in operation in the US increased to 9.4 years, and that the median age for light trucks increased from 7.1 years in 2007 to 7.5 years in 2008.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States

Interesting too... http://autos.aol.com/gallery/best-selling-cars/

Oh and you do realise those in the US only have 1-2 weeks paid holiday, compared to what, 5-6 in the in the UK and europe? Average salaries are around 1:1 $:£ too, along with the prices for most things (ie our spending power of an individual in our respective nations is around the same)...

EDIT: http://www.motor-trade-insider.com/index.php/2010/07/average-age-of-cars-on-uk-roads-increases/ interesting comparison...
 
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Amp34 said:
Sorry... Have to ask but have you ever been to the US?

The average person certainly isn't driving around in 3 year old Mercs... They have bigger houses (partly because they are cheaper to build and partly because they have more space). They have bigger cars, mostly because they are US made and cheap (generally lower quality), even then it's not that clear cut, just a quick look on wiki suggests:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States

Interesting too... http://autos.aol.com/gallery/best-selling-cars/

Oh and you do realise those in the US only have 1-2 weeks paid holiday, compared to what, 5-6 in the in the UK and europe? Average salaries are around 1:1 $:£ too, along with the prices for most things (ie our spending power of an individual in our respective nations is around the same)...

EDIT: http://www.motor-trade-insider.com/index.php/2010/07/average-age-of-cars-on-uk-roads-increases/ interesting comparison...
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Yea I've been to the US far too much. 6 weeks travelling when I was young -- about 10 times since. The sentence you said about prices being about the same made me lol!

The US standard of life economically whips ours from a great height.
 
britboy4321 said:
Yea I've been to the US far too much. 6 weeks travelling when I was young -- about 10 times since. The sentence you said about prices being about the same made me lol!

The US standard of life economically whips ours from a great height.
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It has one of the highest disparities in the rich and poor divide in the world?

It isn't something to be embraced.
 
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