Aussie sentenced to 3 years jail for trolling

Ok, here's a new one for you all.

There appears to be an unspoken consensus that stealing a CD is worse than downloading a copy of it. Why? Many of those against the criminality of downloading music usually say that the difference is that you are taking a physical thing when you steal the CD, so that as no physical thing is lost it is not as 'harmful'.

That is a totally ludicrous argument if you are trying to use the harm principle. The actual harm is the loss of profit, which completely dwarfs the harm caused by the loss of a physical single copy. This is freuquently countered by the (baffling) argument that 'I would not have bought the CD if I did not download it', which seems to rest on the illogical possition that you are entitled to enjoy anything you would not pay for - clearly you are not.

To be honest I am off the opinion that the harm is pretty much identical, it is just done to different people depending on if it is a digital or physical copy. Give us decent legally protected fair rights usage, allow us resell rights, remove DRM and make piracy a criminal offense and I am all good. :D
 
Well, that is a scenario which isn't really based in reality :p

In any case there would be no harm and morally you would have to really push the boundaries to come up with a convincing argument that it was wrong. So yes, that does show the silliness of using morals alone. However, I am merely saying that harm is not always the only indicator that should be used because eventually you will always result in tedious evidential burdens that lead to ridiculous and limp legislation.
The example was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but there are actually numerous parallels to be drawn between the production of child pornography and wildlife documentaries. Both may be perceived as the exploitation of a living thing, where the child or animal is vulnerable and incapable or unwilling to consent to their involvement or understand the ramifications of doing so. The production of wildlife documentaries can result in long-lasting psychological harm to animals just as the production of child pornography can to those children involved.

But the point was really intended to make explicit the distinction between those involved in producing child pornography, and those that simply view it, especially where there is no connection between the two (e.g. money does not change hands, the production is not in any way commissioned, etc.)

There appears to be an unspoken consensus that stealing a CD is worse than downloading a copy of it. Why? Many of those against the criminality of downloading music usually say that the difference is that you are taking a physical thing when you steal the CD, so that as no physical thing is lost it is not as 'harmful'.
That is absolutely correct. Copyright infringement is not theft as there is no deprivation of property.

That is a totally ludicrous argument if you are trying to use the harm principle. The actual harm is the loss of profit, which completely dwarfs the harm caused by the loss of a physical single copy. This is freuquently countered by the (baffling) argument that 'I would not have bought the CD if I did not download it', which seems to rest on the illogical possition that you are entitled to enjoy anything you would not pay for - clearly you are not.
It's not baffling at all. In many cases people state they download music to 'sample' it, in order to determine whether or not they would consider purchasing it.

In many other cases the argument could be made that a person enjoys a piece of music, and would conceivably buy it on those grounds, but not at the market price.

I might derive £4 worth of enjoyment from the new Foo Fighters album and be willing to pay that much for it, but I can't find it anywhere for less than £9. The act of me committing copyright infringement to obtain that album deprives the copyright holder of the £4 that I might be willing to give them for the album, but that is their own fault for failing to give me that option. I certainly would not pay £9 for it.

Others find disagreement with the more fundamental concept of intellectual property rights, and disagree with the music industry using those rights as a business model, as opposed to alternative sources of revenue.
 
It's not baffling at all. In many cases people state they download music to 'sample' it, in order to determine whether or not they would consider purchasing it.

In many other cases the argument could be made that a person enjoys a piece of music, and would conceivably buy it on those grounds, but not at the market price.
In no way do either of those arguments justify the downloading of material without consent - the decision is entirely up to the owner how accessible they want to make and how much they want to charge. If you don't like the business model, simply don't buy it.

I might derive £4 worth of enjoyment from the new Foo Fighters album and be willing to pay that much for it, but I can't find it anywhere for less than £9. The act of me committing copyright infringement to obtain that album deprives the copyright holder of the £4 that I might be willing to give them for the album, but that is their own fault for failing to give me that option. I certainly would not pay £9 for it.
Or, you know, just... don't buy it *shrug* :p

These arguments seem to come from some sort of self-entitlement to listen to music by any means necessary. Just because you want the album for £4 doesn't justify you depriving the owner of £9 of profit which is morally, fairly and legally entitled. If you don't like the business model, don't buy it, or wait until it goes on sale.
 
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Ok, here's a new one for you all.

There appears to be an unspoken consensus that stealing a CD is worse than downloading a copy of it. Why? Many of those against the criminality of downloading music usually say that the difference is that you are taking a physical thing when you steal the CD, so that as no physical thing is lost it is not as 'harmful'. That is a totally ludicrous argument if you are trying to use the harm principle. The actual harm is the loss of profit, which completely dwarfs the harm caused by the loss of a physical single copy.

not so.

A single downloaded copy, is at worst a loss equal to the percentage the record company would get from the sale of a cd.


the theft of a cd however is the cost to the producer and also the extra % the shop would have taken.

hence the downloading is less "harmful" than the theft.
 
not so.

A single downloaded copy, is at worst a loss equal to the percentage the record company would get from the sale of a cd.


the theft of a cd however is the cost to the producer and also the extra % the shop would have taken.

hence the downloading is less "harmful" than the theft.

Do e-retailers not get a cut from online downloads?

Regardless, the total loss of profit is still the most significant factor.

Even if the difference is notable, is the level of harm significant enough between the two to make one a criminal offence and the other a civil offence? In my opinion the difference is, in the grand scheme of things, a fairly trivial distinction.
 
Nothing in that film even comes close to displaying actual child pornography.

ahh but fun fact here, it does count as "extreme pornography".


but when they realised how "badly" they worded the law that pretty much every blockbuster films comes in that category they exempted certified films but if you were to say cut out a few minute clip from one of the scenes then it loses it's certification and you sir are now guilty of possessing extreme porn.

Shouldn't it be classified as child pornography under the Public Order Act 1994?

It amends child pornography laws to also include 'pseuedo-photographs', simulated images that are intended to appear to be real, which from the description of the film seems to be the case (I haven't seen it myself, so I may be wrong)
 
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Shouldn't it be classified as child pornography under the Public Order Act 1994?

It amends child pornography laws to also include 'pseuedo-photographs', simulated images that are intended to appear to be real, which from the description of the film seems to be the case (I haven't seen it myself, so I may be wrong)

However the film has a classification, which makes it exempt. Our law is such an odd beast now that if you watch the entire film it is completely legal, however if you snip the rest of the film and have only that scene it becomes illegal.
 
Shouldn't it be classified as child pornography under the Public Order Act 1994?

It amends child pornography laws to also include 'pseuedo-photographs', simulated images that are intended to appear to be real, which from the description of the film seems to be the case (I haven't seen it myself, so I may be wrong)

if it's bbfc certified it's fine.

they had to amend that in when their new laws said an video that showed a persons life (or genitals) to be in danger (even simulated) was illegal.
 
Do e-retailers not get a cut from online downloads?

not as much.
Regardless, the total loss of profit is still the most significant factor.


yes and a download is less loss so is less harmful when you judge purely on that.


You're measure, so....

the physical theft also requires actions and expenses to be carried out to fix.


Even if the difference is notable, is the level of harm significant enough between the two to make one a criminal offence and the other a civil offence? In my opinion the difference is, in the grand scheme of things, a fairly trivial distinction.


But it's not trivial.

You criminalise downloading, and you have to arrest pretty much every teenager, you'd also have to arrest you too nitefly.


in one day you'd have to charge half the population, while greatly amusing, it would be financially crippling to the country and tie up every court for the next few decades.
 
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yes and a download is less loss so is less harmful when you judge purely on that.

You're measure, so....
Less of a loss in what sense? Less in that it's cheaper to buy in the first place?

All that matters is the loss of the intended profit that is to be expected from selling that product. Comparing the actual £ lost between physically stealing a copy and downloading one is to miss the point because there is still a 100% loss of profit from the legal purchase of those items.

You criminalise downloading, and you have to arrest pretty much every teenager, you'd also have to arrest you too nitefly.

in one day you'd have to charge half the population, while greatly amusing, it would be financially crippling to the country and tie up every court for the next few decades.

I'm not actually advocating that downloading should be a criminal offence - I think it's right that it's a civil offence.

All I'm trying to show is that it can be difficult to classify something based on harm - all we are doing here is shooting back and forth opinions which are exactly that, opinions. What is a harm is an opinion. What you classify as a significant harm will depend on your moral conditioning. Morality and viewpoints on harm are linked and cannot be seperated.

This is quite a roundabout way of trying to show my point I confess :p but I'm just trying to show that criminalisation isn't obvious, it's very tricky and denying the impact of morality is a bit short sighted.
 
In no way do either of those arguments justify the downloading of material without consent - the decision is entirely up to the owner how accessible they want to make and how much they want to charge. If you don't like the business model, simply don't buy it.
They are not legal justifications under UK legislation, obviously. However, as far as I am concerned they are moral justifications. If I download a music album to sample it, decide I do not like it at all and delete it, I have caused no harm to anyone.

If I had purchased a physical copy of the album, I would have returned it, arguably causing harm to the retailer.

These arguments seem to come from some sort of self-entitlement to listen to music by any means necessary. Just because you want the album for £4 doesn't justify you depriving the owner of £9 of profit which is morally, fairly and legally entitled. If you don't like the business model, don't buy it, or wait until it goes on sale.
The point is that if I were to download a £9 album which I valued at £4, I have not deprived the copyright holder of £9. The copyright holder has made the conscious decision to price the album such that I will not buy it. The possibility of me purchasing it and compensating the copyright holder for their work has been completely ruled out. Me spending £9 to gain £4 of utility is not going to be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

However, if I can still derive some semblance of utility (£4 worth) by obtaining the album by means of copyright infringement, that is a mutually beneficial arrangement.

The copyright holder suffers no harm, but I derive utility. Everyone is happy :)
 
They are not legal justifications under UK legislation, obviously. However, as far as I am concerned they are moral justifications.
I think that's the nail I was trying to get you to hit. You see that the law is fair (ie it's not criminal) and you undoubtedly have moral reasons for thinking so. All I'm trying to argue is that there is nothing wrong with that.

Morality is laced all over law. One of the maxims of equity is that you have to come to equity with clean hands - it can't get much more blatant :p
 
Less of a loss in what sense? Less in that it's cheaper to buy in the first place?

All that matters is the loss of the intended profit that is to be expected from selling that product. Comparing the actual £ lost between physically stealing a copy and downloading one is to miss the point because there is still a 100% loss of profit from the legal purchase of those items.

but it's still a lower loss to a lower number of people so in reality it is not the same 100% loss as the physical item stolen from the shop.

Also the physical copy must be re bought and restocked which means the shop loses the money it would make from the sale + the cost of a replacement item which by your reasoning would be a 100 and something % loss (the something being the stores cost of the item - profit)


This is quite a roundabout way of trying to show my point I confess but I'm just trying to show that criminalisation isn't obvious, it's very tricky and denying the impact of morality is a bit short sighted.


actually for your point you chose a horrible example, as practically the difference between copywrite infringement and theft is real, but the moral difference is not.


a harm based law system would differentiate between them a purely moral based one would not.
 
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a harm based law system would differentiate between them a purely moral based one would not.

Based on your own subjective interpretations of harm based on your own moral opinion, sure :p

There isn't really anywhere further to go on this point, but I have enjoyed it - good discussion :)
 
How can you be *insanely* anti-paedo?

Is there some form of Paedophilia that we should support??????

No, but they have some weird laws... mandatory boob size for porn stars, IIRC.

Also, MS-Painting a dick onto a picture is NOT pornography (although it is more than a little ****** up). If that's what he did, he should have pleaded not guilty on that charge.
 
Based on your own subjective interpretations of harm based on your own moral opinion, sure :p

There isn't really anywhere further to go on this point, but I have enjoyed it - good discussion :)

ok tell my why in your opinion a moral system would differentiate between them but a harm one would not?
 
ok tell my why in your opinion a moral system would differentiate between them but a harm one would not?

My own opinion is that physically taking something is always regarded in our society as fundemenatally wrong without needing to consider the actual harm, which is why you can face a criminal sanction for petty shoplifting (when the harm is actually relavtively low).

The 'system' in place today is one that is largely based on the harm principle. Harm remains the greatest indicator for criminalisation, but the inevitable effect of the harm principle by its very nature it's subjective and has to be subtly guided by our moral opinions. You can't say that harm is the only factor that is used because it has such a massive overlap with morality and liberals try to disguise in so many ways. Of course, to say that this makes the harm principle redundant is completely false - both elements should be taken into account. The incompatibility between the two only really exists as an academic argument and to break it down into one is to kind of miss the point. By using harm and appreciating the impact of morality, you can begin to use a common sense approach to criminalisation that is less restrictive and clumsy in using the limitations of just harm or just morality.
 
My own opinion is that physically taking something is always regarded in our society as fundemenatally wrong without needing to consider the actual harm, which is why you can face a criminal sanction for petty shoplifting (when the harm is actually relavtively low).

The 'system' in place today is one that is largely based on the harm principle. Harm remains the greatest indicator for criminalisation, but the inevitable effect of the harm principle by its very nature it's subjective and has to be subtly guided by our moral opinions. You can't say that harm is the only factor that is used because it has such a massive overlap with morality and liberals try to disguise in so many ways. Of course, to say that this makes the harm principle redundant is completely false - both elements should be taken into account. The incompatibility between the two only really exists as an academic argument and to break it down into one is to kind of miss the point. By using harm and appreciating the impact of morality, you can begin to use a common sense approach to criminalisation that is less restrictive and clumsy in using the limitations of just harm or just morality.

that's all very nice but it doesn't answer the question.

Your example was that piracy and theft would be treated the same in a harm based law system but different in a moral one.


I' masking why in your hypothetical moral system they are treated as differently, despite morally being the same.

We're talking about your example not reality so what the current system is has nothing to do with this.
 
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