The Koran - Whos Read It?

[Rainmaker]

3 - ah but in islam your intention (and by extension that requires free will) means that people can choose right and wrong paths.

Quite, but I genuinely don't see what that has to do with my question/conclusion in relation to the scripture you posted?

that argument means that all deeds, good or ill are pre-ordained, and you are fated to believe or disbelieve, which means your only doing what you are told to, and can't take the blame. even the human courts dont take that one

You really have lost me. How does it mean that everything is pre-ordained at all? You said:

the quran does say that those who seek the truth will find it.

So I asked whether one who genuinely seeks with a good heart, and finds a non-Muslim religion in doing so, would then have found the 'truth'? The Qur'an is the word of God/Allah, so taking that at face value he who sought and as a result of that found Christianity/Judaism/Jainism/Taoism/Hinduism found the truth also. Surely saying otherwise means that the Qur'an isn't the literal word of God/Allah, or else is flawed unless you look at it a certain non-literal way?

As I said, and I'm keen to stress, I'm not trying to trip anyone up, bash Islam, Allah or the prophet (pbuh). I just don't understand how that part of the Qur'an can be reconciled with people finding other religions, and those religions then not being the truth. I can understand it in the case of those brought UP with a different religion, but those who truly seek from an agnostic viewpoint? The verse in question would have to be wrong for other religions to not be the truth, as I've read it.

theres a hadith (sayings of the prophet and stories of his acts) about tie your camel. the story below is embellished somewhat, but you get the idea, god helps those who help themselves

"One day a man ran up to the Islamic Prophet Muhammad and said “O Prophet, I’m a good Muslim. I do everything required of me by God and then some.” The prophet praised the man for his fastidiousness and piety. The man continued, “Well, O Prophet, I do all this and I trust fully in God. When I went to the market today, I recited a prayer and asked God to please look after my camel while I shopped. I left the camel there and went to shop. When I returned, the camel was gone! Why didn’t God keep my camel safe?”

The Prophet chuckled and replied “Brother, it is good that you trust in God… but always tie up your camel!”

The moral of the story is: Faith is great, but at least take basic precautions or “God helps those who help themselves”."

It sounds like a bad joke, but I like it. It makes sense.

 

[dmarshall29]

Perhaps 'the less spiritual you become' would be more apt. I presume that's what you were actually saying?

Yes I like that too

 

[bandit]

Quite, but I genuinely don't see what that has to do with my question/conclusion in relation to the scripture you posted?



You really have lost me. How does it mean that everything is pre-ordained at all? You said:



So I asked whether one who genuinely seeks with a good heart, and finds a non-Muslim religion in doing so, would then have found the 'truth'? The Qur'an is the word of God/Allah, so taking that at face value he who sought and as a result of that found Christianity/Judaism/Jainism/Taoism/Hinduism found the truth also. Surely saying otherwise means that the Qur'an isn't the literal word of God/Allah, or else is flawed unless you look at it a certain non-literal way?

As I said, and I'm keen to stress, I'm not trying to trip anyone up, bash Islam, Allah or the prophet (pbuh). I just don't understand how that part of the Qur'an can be reconciled with people finding other religions, and those religions then not being the truth. I can understand it in the case of those brought UP with a different religion, but those who truly seek from an agnostic viewpoint? The verse in question would have to be wrong for other religions to not be the truth, as I've read it.



It sounds like a bad joke, but I like it. It makes sense.

too deep for 3am

ok the principle i'm reconciling the hard heart idea, that some will just never get it and therefore burn in eternal damnation mad: ) with is that god says that we have free will, and those who help themselves god will help.

so, if by your own choice you sincerely want to believe in the truth, god will help strengthen your belief, however although i understand what your trying to say, remember that with free will, it means that there must be a right and a wrong answer, otherwise theres no choice at all. once there is genuine choice and a right or wrong answer (and a right and wrong religion by extension), if you ask for god to help you and you take steps to help yourself, you will end up on the right path (whatever that may be)

make sense (sorry if it dont, i have had a veery long day, and i still have to put the frickin bins and recycling out!!!

 

[Rainmaker]

too deep for 3am

ok the principle i'm reconciling the hard heart idea, that some will just never get it and therefore burn in eternal damnation mad: ) with is that god says that we have free will, and those who help themselves god will help.

so, if by your own choice you sincerely want to believe in the truth, god will help strengthen your belief, however although i understand what your trying to say, remember that with free will, it means that there must be a right and a wrong answer, otherwise theres no choice at all. once there is genuine choice and a right or wrong answer (and a right and wrong religion by extension), if you ask for god to help you and you take steps to help yourself, you will end up on the right path (whatever that may be)

make sense (sorry if it dont, i have had a veery long day, and i still have to put the frickin bins and recycling out!!!

It makes sense friend, I just come to the opposite conclusion using your own scripture and logic. People of all religions the world over pray to god for inspiration and help, and their faith in their relative religions deepens also. They don't decide they like the sound of Islam the harder they pray. Reading that back, please don't reply that they're praying to the wrong god; that really won't help your stance at all haha

I disagree with the part about free will equalling one right and one wrong choice (and religion); in fact I'd say free will provides by its nature an infinity of choices and answers, including many shades of grey.

But alas, it's almost 3.30 and I think we're both a little too close to bed to be able to take this much deeper for much longer. I thank you for your time and insights, and for what it's worth I have a greater understanding of Islam now than when we started, even if I don't agree with it all.

Goodnight all.

 

[bandit]

It makes sense friend, I just come to the opposite conclusion using your own scripture and logic. People of all religions the world over pray to god for inspiration and help, and their faith in their relative religions deepens also. They don't decide they like the sound of Islam the harder they pray to [insert religion's god here]. Reading that back, please don't reply that they're praying to the wrong god; that really won't help your stance at all haha

I disagree with the part about free will equalling one right and one wrong choice (and religion); in fact I'd say free will provides by its nature an infinity of choices and answers, including many shades of grey.

But alas, it's almost 3.30 and I think we're both a little too close to bed to be able to take this much deeper for much longer. I thank you for your time and insights, and for what it's worth I have a greater understanding of Islam now than when we started, even if I don't agree with it all.

Goodnight all.

Goodnight all

 

[Amnesia]

So how would the following be interpreted?

I find a drug addict in the street.
He begs for money for food.
I don't know what he really wants it for.
But it may be for food.
So I give him some money.
With the money he buys drugs, not food.
While high he stabs and kills someone.

I knew when I gave him some money that he may buy drugs and therefore damage society. But I also knew that if I didn't give him money then he might either starve to death or rob someone for money to buy food.

Which would I be condemned for? Giving money that damages society or not giving money which may then also damage society?

I haven't read any answers that were given to you if any and this isn't an Islamic response it's just my way of thinking.
Say you were to have kids some day, now you know later in life the kids may sin, would it stop you having kids ? no ofcourse not but you wouldn't expect to be held responsible for their actions would you ?

 

[CMOS]

I'm reading it now and have to say it's an amazing text. When you approach without any preconceptions nor bias instilled from the mainstream media I fail how anyone (who believes in God) can't see it's divine origin.

Also I can't how or why it's so imcompatible with the teachings of of the other prophets like Moses and Jesus. And more importantly why so many Christians and Jews see it as false, fraudulant ect.

Are there any christians or jews here that have read it?

I read it almost every day, it truly is an exceptionally divine book. You should hear it sometime being recited from memory its awsome to hear it in flow and most of the guys (they usually call them "Hafiz") are really young, i dont think ill be able to recite it from memory until 20 years later.

 

[mcast]

I still believe magick is one of the dons, his job spec is to create purposefully controversial posts, to keep members on the site buying products.

It's impossible for one person to be that bonkers.

 

[wozzizname]

Why is God so keen on having everyone pray to him ?

And why would he place religious faith ahead of the deeds people do, when judging us ?

 

[magick]

Why is God so keen on having everyone pray to him ?

And why would he place religious faith ahead of the deeds people do, when judging us ?

He doesn't place religious faith ahead of the deeds people do.

 

[wozzizname]

He doesn't place religious faith ahead of the deeds people do.

That's encouraging - I'm not sure of the Muslim position on this, but I know some Christian groups insist you'll be doomed to a fiery hell unless you join their faith.

I just can't accept that a benevolent God would do that to people who live good lives.

 

[magick]

That's encouraging - I'm not sure of the Muslim position on this, but I know some Christian groups insist you'll be doomed to a fiery hell unless you join their faith.

a lot of muslims and jews have the same belief. I can tell you from personal experience God does not care what religion you belong to, whether you'r circumsised, goto a templ, church or mosque, what race you are, what country you are from, whether you are rich or poor, famous or a nobody. What God cares about and what you are judged on are personal deeds and what's in your heart. Most of these people that tell you'r damned if your not of there faith end up in the limbo (least worse regions of hell) themselves.

I just can't accept that a benevolent God would do that to people who live good lives.

He doesn't so don't worry.

 

[Squark]

I haven't read the Koran, I'd rather keep reading the Bible.
Though the parts of the Koran I have heard/seen, though likely out of context, I didn't really agree with.

 

[WingZero30]

That's encouraging - I'm not sure of the Muslim position on this, but I know some Christian groups insist you'll be doomed to a fiery hell unless you join their faith.

I just can't accept that a benevolent God would do that to people who live good lives.

Thats the arrogance right there. You find such people in all religion. This kind of arrogance isn't forgiven in Islam where one thinks of himself as 'superior' to his fellow humans in terms of religion, money, skills, attributes etc.

What if these people were born in different religions or lived like hermits in amazon jungle, would they be saying the same thing. This reminds me of religious ferver which if taken to extreme can make a person blind to fellow human beings feelings and considerations. That kind of person will always look down upon other people.

There are so many different religions/personal beliefs/philosophies/etc that it is impossible to judge any one from human perspective. Hence from Islamic perspective each one will be judged separately taking into account his whole life.

It is narrated that, The prophet Muhammad said: “The son of Adam will not pass away from Allah until he is asked about five things:
how he lived his life,
how he utilized his youth,
with what means did he earn his wealth,
how did he spend his wealth, and
what did he do with his knowledge.”
(At-Tirmithi)

Islam is Faith + Actions:

Islam means obedience to God. Obedience to God means - having sincere faith in Him. Such a faith means to , believe in His Powers. Belief in His Powers means – recognizing and accepting His Majesty.

Acceptance of His Majesty means Fulfilling the obligations laid down by Him. And fulfillment of Obligations means actions. Therefore, Islam does not mean mere Faith, but Faith plus Deeds.
(Imam Malik)

So from islamic perspective actions without faith are devoided of merit while faith without actions can't be measured until actions are done in accordance with faith. It doesn't mean that actions that are to be done solely are to to be religious actions such as pray, fasting etc but it means how we conduct ourselves in this world keeping in view what Allah/God has ordained for us muslims in this world.

 

[Spleenus]

Like ALL religious texts it's a story. A set of rules laid down by MEN who lived centuries ago and felt that the world would be better if everybody believed what they were told and followed a certain set of rules that propagated a status quo.

The human brain has an evolutionary need for a belief in a higher power. As children we have invisible friends, a few years later, we have gods.

That's not an Islamic hate position (some of my best friends are Muslims, I play cricket with half a dozen every Sunday). It's an opinion. Religious people would receive a lot less hatred from others if they didn't keep dismissing our opinions as false; you have your beliefs, I have mine. You believe in a higher power, I believe in the truth I personally see and touch in Science and Nature. If only we could all accept that everybody doesn't have to believe in the same things to make the world work...

I agree with you there, I also think that religion is a tool used to control people without actually doing it directly and so absconding some of the responsibility for decision making. It's very easy to go 'you must do this because god says so'

 

[e36Adz]

i'll be honest i dont know the answer to that one. its a difficult one and a part of my religion i struggle with. in islam it says that there are some who will never get the message because god has, to paraphrase, made them incapable of learning the truth. its difficult to see if thats the case how this is their fault and why they should be punished for something that they have no contol over (if you believe that god exists and does this!)

It is indeed a very difficult concept to understand, that God guides certain people and leaves certain people to stray, and God has gone so far as to say that certain people will NEVER be guided. From my understanding and what I learnt from reading the Quran was that God guides people depending on what is in their hearts. Good deeds, acts of kindness, and prayer etc cleanse the heart as the prophet PBUH said: “Suppose there is a river that flows in front of your house and you take a wash five times in it. Then would there remain any dirt and filth on you after that? Performing daily prayers five times a day is similar to that which washes away sins” This act of purification (5 daily prayers commanded to all muslims) has benefits which we don't even know the full extent off, but we have been told that it cleanses us. The opposite can be said when a person sins, or completely disregards his duty towards God as the prophet PBUH also said, "A black stain occurs in the heart as a result of every sin."

Now as a result of this, some poeples hearts become so blackened due to their own actions and sins, that no matter how much a person tries to call them to God, they will never listen. Their heart is essentially blinded. We as human beings do not know what is concealed in the heart, therefore muslims should really relay the message of Islam to everyone but it is expected that you will come across ridicule and slander. The Quran says of such people as a warning to muslims:

They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

God has already warned us that what some people conceal inside is far worse then their actual words.

The Quran also speaks many times of people being 'dumb, deaf and blind' yet this cannot mean in the physical sense because such people do have eyes to see etc and so are not physically blind. Instead I believe it is referring to internal vision, which again comes from God alone where the heart is cleansed and when He puts light in the heart of a believer, it is then able to gain sight and actually see the reality of things. So unlike what the modern world teaches us, which is that reality is based on what we can physically see, measure and observe, the Quran says that the heart is also capable of seeing and recognising. So I believe what will lead us to guidance and truth, or take us away from it, is what is in our hearts.

It is not one person who guides another, guidance comes from God alone. We are assured that God is 'The Just' and He has promised that no soul will be wronged, and intentions count for a lot. Everything that was hidden and concealed inside will be brought forward and the things that some people would mock, will be surrounding them. They will already know their own fate and will be cursing themselves, they will not be blaming God because in Gods court, there are no lies.

 

[e36Adz]

Magick, a topic in Islam which may interest you is Gog and Magog as I personally believe it explains a lot about what is taking place in the world today. Not sure if you saw the thread but its here:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18238453

Another thing which I forgot to mention was, every person is born into a different age, society, country, environment, all which affect our upbringing and this is something else which is considered and its why only God alone can judge. We are not here to judge other people as we do not know what state that person will be in once they die.

This current age that we live in now, is the most difficult ever in the whole of human history according to the prophet PBUH so we will be judged according to that. He said this because of the massive lies and deception that will be taking place but there are precautionary steps we can and must take to protect ourselves. The concept of 'seeing' with the heart gets interesting when you look at what the prophet PBUH said about the Dajjal or Anti-Christ who will lead most of mankind astray, he PBUH said; "“l warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him, but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and your Lord is not one-eyed.”

One eyed here I believe refers to internal blindness (blindness of the heart) and when he launches his attack on mankind he will render them internally blind so they rely on nothing but external observation and completely disregard spirituality. This is why the prophet PBUH also said, "he will have kafir (unbeliever) written on his forehead, and only the believers will be able to read it whether literate or illiterate". Only those who have faith in the heart will be able to recognise the liar, therefore it is clear we are not seeing with our physical eyes but instead we are recognising him with the heart.

 

[Raz]

That's encouraging - I'm not sure of the Muslim position on this, but I know some Christian groups insist you'll be doomed to a fiery hell unless you join their faith.

I just can't accept that a benevolent God would do that to people who live good lives.

One of the issues with that is what is 'good'?

 

[Squark]

Magick, a topic in Islam which may interest you is Gog and Magog...

Oh don't try and bring that thread up again.
I'm remember trying to read it all through and it made no sense whatsoever.

 

[RDM]

I am not sure that such an easily influenced soul such as magick and Islam would be a good mix at this time...