Thinking of buying a DAC

[wozzizname]

Hi folks, I currently have a Roksan Kandy (mk1) amp and CD player, and a pair of MA RS6 speakers and some old Stax SR Gamma headphones with SRDX-pro driver.
I'm tempted to transfer all my CDs to my PC , probably as FLAC files, so I can hook the PC up to the hifi and I thought a DAC would be in order.

Any recommendations up to about £250-ish ? Was thinking of the Cambridge DAC Magic, but haven't had the opportunity to try one.

 

[commited]

I did a bit of research on this recently and settled on the Maverick D1 (although I bought a version with a different name) which is available for £119 including delivery (I ordered it for £101 thanks to a shipping error).

Maverick D1 review

I chose it as it seemed to offer great bang for back and came with really positive reviews. However, if that £250 is burning a hole in your pocket, the Audio-gd NFB-2 or 3 seem to be top of the charts for the money at the moment.

 

[wozzizname]

The Maverick sounds really interesting, but I can't find anywhere that supplies them in the UK. I'm not too keen on importing something in case of problems with it...

 

[Ste]

A DAC is definitely a requirement for PC listening, but don't expect to be anywhere near what your CDP can do just by adding one. That discussion is for another thread, just wanted to make sure youre not proceeding on a false hope!

I have the DACmagic and it's a very capable entry level unit, I'd recommend it though I have not tried anything else. It gets good reviews for the price, so is worth a go if you can get hold of one to demo

 

[commited]

For something so cheap I wasn't really worried about it. It's an understandable concern, but there haven't been any reliability problems from what I've seen. From all of my research, all of the best options that are good value for money will need to be bought from abroad. At the end of the day, go with the DacMagic for £220 including 5 year warranty if that's the main concern for you, but from everything I've read the Maverick D1 shows it the door, as well as being able to upgrade opamps and tubes in future!

 

[wozzizname]

A DAC is definitely a requirement for PC listening, but don't expect to be anywhere near what your CDP can do just by adding one. That discussion is for another thread, just wanted to make sure youre not proceeding on a false hope!

Hmm, I was lumbering under the impression that a lossless file played through a decent DAC would be about as good as a standalone CD player - I'm very out of touch these days !

 

[Bubba]

I have a dacmagic and it works great, from all the reviews I have read it cant be beat for the price.

Make sure you use wasapi for your music, I use foobar with a wasapi plugin to get my music through to the DAC untouched as windows does some messing about with it before outputting.

 

[apple_man77]

I'd be tempted to add something like an m audio 24/96 sound card and run some RCA leads from this directly in to your amp.

Your never going to get the quality of a event dedicated cd player so it's pointless spending £250 on a dac in my opinion!

 

[Ste]

Hmm, I was lumbering under the impression that a lossless file played through a decent DAC would be about as good as a standalone CD player - I'm very out of touch these days !

Nah there's a fairly substantial difference, though part of me is happy with the flexibilty/quality trade off (who wants to listen to CDs these days) part of me is a bit gutted that it doesn't sound better than it does.

I believe the best results you're likely to get from a computer go PC > external soundcard (via WASAPI) > reclocker > DAC > amp. This gets a very polished result with my setup, but it's still a good distance off a dedicated CDP.

A reclocker is something that cleans up, dejitters and probably upsamples (the snakeoil discussions are for another thread) to get a better quality input into the DAC. A second hand one will set you back about £100 and will make a nice difference.

 

[Mattus]

I believe the best results you're likely to get from a computer go PC > external soundcard (via WASAPI) > reclocker > DAC > amp. This gets a very polished result with my setup, but it's still a good distance off a dedicated CDP.

When you say that, what level of CDP are you talking about?

I have a DACMagic and also have the MA RS6 speakers. I play lossless files through an NAD C352 amp. To my ears, this sounds pretty good.

If I bought a CD player that's about the same price as the DACMagic (£200ish), do you think I'd see a significant improvement in quality?

 

[MikeHunt79]

The AK4396 is rather nice

 

[DarkMatter]

From my knowledge a CD player is a transport (disc drive) and a DAC built into one, i think its the 840C which has the dacmagic as the DAC inside of it. Obviously being an all in one unit there is some advantages as less connections/shorter cables there is less links in the system and less room for errors. But i cannot see how this will make a massive difference.

This is my current system

X-fi XtreamMusic -> Co-axial -> Dacmagic -Chord Chameleon Silver Plus> NAD C355 -> Chord Odessey 2 -> MA GS10


I used to use a squeezebox as a transport to my dacmagic but combining all my system together to just use my HTPC, i found that the output from my soundcard at 96khz sounded better than the squeezebox.

I came to the conclusion that as a transport the power supply of my pc is far more sophisticated than the squeezebox causing less jitter and hence providing a better sound.

So the conclusion to the story is that it can make a difference the cd player but i think the DAC is a much bigger element of the system.

 

[Ste]

That's a very interesting observation - a number of the hi-fi experts here would probably argue that the squeezebox should sound better than the PC due to being away from noisy switching power supplies and the poorly insulated inside of a PC.

I've tried the following through the DACmagic (i.e. ignoring the onboard DACs of the CDPs)

Creek Destiny (modern player, about £1k worth)
Arcam Alpha 6 (mid 90's player, was about 500quid back then)
PC (onboard coax out & x-fi gamer optical out)

Both of the CDPs were significantly better than the PC, though I'm not sure what a £200 integrated unit would sound. If you want to experiment, a lot of the old Arcam players are on auction sites nowdays for very little money (I've seen some go for £40!) and would be well worth a go just to satisfy your curiosity

 

[lucid]

If I bought a CD player that's about the same price as the DACMagic (£200ish), do you think I'd see a significant improvement in quality?

You can't play music with just a DAC. You need something as a source as well.

So, to compare you really need to add together the cost of the PC + software + DAC to make a comparable price for a CD player. Then you're looking not at £200 but more like £700 - £1000. At that price point the CD player to bear is the Creek Evo II - £650 new and a seriously good bit of kit.

The other thing is sound quality. It's not just definition: That should always improve with higher quality gear. The harder thing to get is that sense of timing and playing together that is a very elusive quality even in high-end gear.

Words are a poor substitute for the listening experience, so the closest way I can describe it is comparing a track from your favourite artist on their best day to a cover version played by session musicians just going through the numbers. One would have soul, passion, intensity and communicate in lots of ways. The other would be technically correct but devoid of emotion. Music vs muzak. Just buying a better CD player or a better DAC or spending more money in general doesn't guarantee an improvement in that area, and it's where PC based/streamed audio systems just can't compete.

Yesterday I was listening and comparing CD players. Creek Evo II (£650) vs Electrocompaniet Prelude PC-1 (£1400) vs Electrocompaniet ECC-1 (£2300). It would be easy to assume that the PC-1 being more than twice the price of the Creek would easily be better... but it wasn't, and not just in emotion. The Evo II vs the ECC-1 was a harder call.

If you were listening for the buzz word that the hi-fi mags use such as transparency, openness, attack, etc etc then you'd probably have picked the Creek. But listening to how the musicians player together, and the emotion in the voices, and whether the music made sense then on simple stuff the two players did well. But when things got a bit more complex the ECC-1 really started to show how much better it could convey what was coming off the disc.

I've heard some very high end PC based audio systems with tricked out linear power supplies and all the goodies playing super accurate rips in to seriously high-end DACS such as the dCS Scarlatti (£13,000 to you sir) and so far none has beaten a humble £650 CD player from a little British hifi company who have been making music systems for 40 years.

 

[Mattus]

You can't play music with just a DAC. You need something as a source as well.

So, to compare you really need to add together the cost of the PC + software + DAC to make a comparable price for a CD player. Then you're looking not at £200 but more like £700 - £1000. At that price point the CD player to bear is the Creek Evo II - £650 new and a seriously good bit of kit.

That makes sense from the perspective of a fair comparison, but unfortunately it doesn't make practical sense for me! I can't sell my PC, because I need it as more than a music source. So I don't have £650+ to spend on a CD player - I'd have the £200 I'd get from selling the DAC. I'd love a Creek Evo II, but right now I can't afford it and what I'm after is the best sound with the resources I have.

Words are a poor substitute for the listening experience, so the closest way I can describe it is comparing a track from your favourite artist on their best day to a cover version played by session musicians just going through the numbers. One would have soul, passion, intensity and communicate in lots of ways. The other would be technically correct but devoid of emotion. Music vs muzak. Just buying a better CD player or a better DAC or spending more money in general doesn't guarantee an improvement in that area, and it's where PC based/streamed audio systems just can't compete.

It's interesting that you describe the DAC option as 'technically correct but devoid of emotion'. I've heard very similar words used by analogue/vinyl enthusiasts to describe CDs, and digital audio in general. I don't doubt that your observations are correct, but I'm the kind of person who needs to understand why these things are true on a technical level. I can understand why vinyl and valve amps produce a warmer and more emotive sound than digital technology. What I don't yet understand is how I can get warmth and soul and passion by swapping one digital source (a PC and DAC) for another (a CDP).

People I've spoken to in the past have struggled to account for why a CDP should be inherently better than a PC-based solution and have just encouraged me to try it out myself. That's undoubtedly a good idea, but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity. If a CDP inherently sounds better, there must be a sound technical reason why! Is it a matter of the CDP having less jitter and more accurate timing? And if that's the case, why can't the PC audio enthusiasts rectify it with reclockers and all the other wizardry they use?

 

[lucid]

That makes sense from the perspective of a fair comparison, but unfortunately it doesn't make practical sense for me! I can't sell my PC, because I need it as more than a music source.

You agree it makes sense from a cost comparison perspective, and that's the point I was addressing. Whether or not it makes practical sense for you is irrelevant as far as a cost comparison goes. All that is important is comparing like for like, that's all.

It's interesting that you describe the DAC option as 'technically correct but devoid of emotion'. I've heard very similar words used by analogue/vinyl enthusiasts to describe CDs, and digital audio in general. I don't doubt that your observations are correct, but I'm the kind of person who needs to understand why these things are true on a technical level. I can understand why vinyl and valve amps produce a warmer and more emotive sound than digital technology. What I don't yet understand is how I can get warmth and soul and passion by swapping one digital source (a PC and DAC) for another (a CDP).

Hi-Fi should read the source and convey that information accurately. Some gear does it better than others. The result is that the emotion that's on the disc, and the quality of the performance, is preserved better and relayed with greater fidelity with some gear than other stuff. Is it because one transport uses a different circuit design to another....probably... or a bigger PSU...probably...or better caps...probably....but quite honestly I don't care. I listen to hi-fi gear the same way as I listen to live performances. I don't need an equation or to know the types of transistors are used in the PA to tell if the band played well or not. I hear and feel it.

People I've spoken to in the past have struggled to account for why a CDP should be inherently better than a PC-based solution and have just encouraged me to try it out myself. That's undoubtedly a good idea, but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity. If a CDP inherently sounds better, there must be a sound technical reason why! Is it a matter of the CDP having less jitter and more accurate timing? And if that's the case, why can't the PC audio enthusiasts rectify it with reclockers and all the other wizardry they use?

Because I don't think it's just about jitter or the accuracy of the clock. If it was then all CDPs would be much better than they are too. There's a whole sequence of components involved in the process of modulating mains to make some music come out of speakers.

I have no doubt that one day ordinary PCs will beat CD players as a source for music. I just think that at the moment that ordinary PCs involve far too many compromises because they are designed from a different - non-hifi - perspective. Now consider a CD player. It's really a specialist PC. It reads and processes data using bespoke software... That's a PC!! But it's designed from the ground up to do just one job.

 

[Ste]

People I've spoken to in the past have struggled to account for why a CDP should be inherently better than a PC-based solution and have just encouraged me to try it out myself. That's undoubtedly a good idea, but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity. If a CDP inherently sounds better, there must be a sound technical reason why! Is it a matter of the CDP having less jitter and more accurate timing? And if that's the case, why can't the PC audio enthusiasts rectify it with reclockers and all the other wizardry they use?

I'm in the exact same boat, unfortunately I'm not clever enough to completely understand it, but there is definately a major difference between the two. If you get a DAC and run your PC through it then you will get an excellent result, all we're saying is that if you usually spend hours sat listening to your CDP you won't get the same result. Now I'm talking about some fairly good expensive CDPs (the Creek Destiny is the model above the Evo and has seperate PSUs for transport, DAC and logic, for example) and you may not notice such a difference between a £200 CDP and a PC.

Give it a go and find out - you will lose very little on selling on a DACmagic if you don't like it. As mentioned, if you really want to make the most of it you'll want a reclocker to help with jitter too.

 

[TALON1973]

if you get a dac i recommend getting hold of some 96/24 hd tracks ... the differnce between them and cd is huge ...

 

[Mattus]

If you want to experiment, a lot of the old Arcam players are on auction sites nowdays for very little money (I've seen some go for £40!) and would be well worth a go just to satisfy your curiosity

Just been looking on the auction site. Lots of Arcam Alpha 5s, 6s and 7s. Seeing as I'd probably be running the CDP through my DacMagic, is there any advantage to getting a 7 over the 5? Are they all basically the same transport with different DACs?

 

[Ste]

5 and 6 share the same transport, the upgrade here was to the DAC. I think the 7 was a fresh start though, not sure. Any would be worth a go as you can always sell it on and lose very little (or profit!)