Poll: F.P.T.P or A.V.. This Thursday

FPTP or AV

  • FPTP

    Votes: 319 37.1%

  • AV

    Votes: 359 41.8%

  • Pfft, Will Still End Up Run By Crooks

    Votes: 181 21.1%
  • Total voters
    859
I'm not even sure why you two are arguing any more. Neither of you are going to agree with each other and I don't think you're going to change each others minds on what to vote for (if you haven't voted already) nor do I think anyone who is wondering who to vote is going to read your posts to find an answer.
Futile.
 
AcidHell2 said:
No you are still totalling for each round, that is not how stats are recorded. Go read up on what stats are. The stats will show a total of 110 votes split over two rounds.
You only -1 for the election result, not for the stats, this seems to be totally over your head.
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What stats are you talking about? Where can you read up about these stats?

I think you're making things up.
 
AcidHell2 said:
It changes tactical voting, it does not stop it.

I can vote ukip or another minority party as first preference as a tactical vote against main stream. I can then put my proper main stream preference as 2nd vote. My 1st choice vote will be recorded in the stats and parties can poor over this data and analyse and may wish to change certain policies to try and gain votes. So tactical voting won't of gone any where its just changed from one system to another.
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It's gone in the only way that matters. Ie being forced to vote for a party you don't particularly want to avoid the terrible/extremist parties getting in. I don't even see an issue with what you mentioned.
 
Ahleckz said:
I'm not even sure why you two are arguing any more. Neither of you are going to agree with each other and I don't think you're going to change each others minds on what to vote for (if you haven't voted already) nor do I think anyone who is wondering who to vote is going to read your posts to find an answer.
Futile.
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It is not a matter of opinion, it is not a matter of agreeing with the other, it is basic, 101, preschooler maths. There are toddlers who can add up numbers better these these guys. Thus far BDEE has tried to claim 3 out of 10 is majority and AcidHell2 here completely failing to pass a token not adding a new one.
 
Energize said:
It's gone in the only way that matters. Ie being forced to vote for a party you don't particularly want to avoid the terrible/extremist parties getting in. I don't even see an issue with what you mentioned.
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I previously covered this off and it does NOT eliminate this at all (but not specific to extremeist parties, more relevent to ANY perticular party or group of parties). Not sure how far back it is, but I even had agreement from YES camp after I explained how it doesnt eliminate it, just makes it different.
 
BunnyKillBot said:
Did you? I am afraid i can't see your 'proof' anywhere. You might need to restate it more clearly.

Circles in circles, deluded logic, you don't have a scrap of evidence so you just default back to the same old attack the opposition routine. Next up, you restate 'the fact of the matter is....' all the while unable to provide a scrap of proof.
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I am going to try this one more time, I would appreciate it if you could keep any reply civil. If not, then I will, once agian, just give up replying to you.

Using A, B, C, D, E to keep it politically agnostic.

Voter 1 votes A D
Voter 2 votes B C E

Round 1
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes B (1 preference counted)

Round 2 B eliminated
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes C (2 preferences now counted)

Round 3 C eliminated
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes E (3 preferences counted)

Round 4 D eliminated
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes E (3 preferences counted)

E wins.

Voter 1 had only one of his prefenences taken in to account. Voter 2 had 3 of their preferences taken in to account. The part where perception comes in is if YOU PERSONALLY feel that 1 preference being counted 3 times is the same as 3 preferences being counted once each. This is where people will differ and this is where people will consider it as having more than one vote or not. Obviously only one vote from each voter actually counts for the end result, but the intervening rounds help make the end result.

AcidHell2's argument is different, he is arguing that when political parties examine the election results, each round will be taken in to account rather than just the final round.
 
Energize said:
It's gone in the only way that matters. Ie being forced to vote for a party you don't particularly want to avoid the terrible/extremist parties getting in. I don't even see an issue with what you mentioned.
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Neither do I, if you believe in the policies of the minority party, you should be putting them in first pref. Again, that is not tactical, it is stating you preference.
 
RDM said:
I am going to try this one more time, I would appreciate it if you could keep any reply civil. If not, then I will, once agian, just give up replying to you.

Using A, B, C, D, E to keep it politically agnostic.

Voter 1 votes A D
Voter 2 votes B C E

Round 1
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes B (1 preference counted)

Round 2 B eliminated
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes C (2 preferences now counted)

Round 3 C eliminated
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes E (3 preferences counted)

Round 4 D eliminated
Voter 1 votes A (1 preference counted)
Voter 2 votes E (3 preferences counted)

E wins.

Voter 1 had only one of his prefenences taken in to account. Voter 2 had 3 of their preferences taken in to account. The part where perception comes in is if YOU PERSONALLY feel that 1 preference being counted 3 times is the same as 3 preferences being counted once each. This is where people will differ and this is where people will consider it as having more than one vote or not. Obviously only one vote from each voter actually counts for the end result, but the intervening rounds help make the end result.

AcidHell2's argument is different, he is arguing that when political parties examine the election results, each round will be taken in to account rather than just the final round.
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/me awaits

But RDM, YOU ARE WRONG. CANT YOU SEE THAT. YOU HAVENT PROVIDED ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP.

;)
 
BunnyKillBot said:
It is not a matter of opinion, it is not a matter of agreeing with the other, it is basic, 101, preschooler maths. There are toddlers who can add up numbers better these these guys. Thus far BDEE has tried to claim 3 out of 10 is majority and AcidHell2 here completely failing to pass a token not adding a new one.
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3 out of 10 could be a majority. If there are say 10 voters and 7 parties. Voters 1 - 7 each rank one candidate.
A - G each have 1 vote.

Voter 8 votes for 'A' and 'B'
A have 2, B have 2, C - G have 1 each.

Voter 9 votes for 'A' and 'C'.
A have 3, B have 2, C have 2, D - G have 1 each.

Voter 10 votes for 'D' and 'E'
A have 3, B have 2, C have 2, D have 1, E has 1, F has 1 and G has 1.

No more votes can be counted. A wins and is returned with a majority of 30%.

Wait, I suggested we stop arguing and now I'm getting involved? Woops.
 
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People who believe that a 'preference' equals a 'vote' are simply wrong. It is not subjective. It is an incorrect belief.
 
Ahleckz said:
3 out of 10 could be a majority. If there are say 10 voters and 7 parties. Voters 1 - 7 each rank one candidate.
A - G each have 1 vote.

Voter 8 votes for 'A' and 'B'
A have 2, B have 2, C - G have 1.

Voter 9 votes for 'A' and 'C'.
A have 3, B have 2, C have 2, D - G have 1.

Voter 10 votes for 'D' and 'E'
A have 3, B have 2, C have 2, D have 1 and E has 1.

No more votes can be counted. A wins and is returned with a majority of 30%.

Wait, I suggested we stop arguing and now I'm getting involved? Woops.
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I wouldn't bother - he / she has had this pointed out about 4 times now but still fails to see that is it a matter of opinion and that only his/her opinion is right.
 
BDEE said:
/me awaits

But RDM, YOU ARE WRONG. CANT YOU SEE THAT. YOU HAVENT PROVIDED ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP.

;)
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Unfortunately, i am not childish :)

Ok fantastic, here is some data.

Now, you claimed that AV gives some voters more effective votes. Ie, at the end of voting, there are more than 100% of votes cast. Using the data you have provided, show me how this is the case.

By your example, each round, all voters recast their votes. Voter 1 sticks with Party A because they are still in the running, but its still an effective cast vote. Are you arguing its unfair because Voter 1 cant decide to change their vote because their first party is still in the running?
 
Ahleckz said:
No more votes can be counted. A wins and is returned with a majority of 30%.
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30% is not, never has been and never will be a majority. Mathematics pre-school 101.

Dictionary definition

ma·jor·i·ty   
[muh-jawr-i-tee, -jor-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1.
the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total ( opposed to minority): the majority of the population.
2.
a number of voters or votes, jurors, or others in agreement, constituting more than half of the total number.
3.
the amount by which the greater number, as of votes, surpasses the remainder ( distinguished from plurality).

Notice the use of the word half and remainder, get it? x.x (mathematically valid) NOT x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x (mathematically invalid) 0.5 is a number. 0.2.1 is not a number. Go on, do me 2.5.4 * 2.9.4.3.2 + 4

Or do you want to argue the dictionary is wrong?
 
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BunnyKillBot said:
30% is not, never has been and never will be a majority.

3.
the amount by which the greater number, as of votes, surpasses the remainder ( distinguished from plurality).
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That line there..... if 30% surpasses the other 70% in terms of the direction of the votes, makes it a majority. You just owned yourself.

Please also whats with all the American maths class stuff, this is not America.
 
BunnyKillBot said:
30% is not, never has been and never will be a majority. Mathematics pre-school 101.

Dictionary definition

ma·jor·i·ty   
[muh-jawr-i-tee, -jor-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1.
the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total ( opposed to minority): the majority of the population.
2.
a number of voters or votes, jurors, or others in agreement, constituting more than half of the total number.
3.
the amount by which the greater number, as of votes, surpasses the remainder ( distinguished from plurality).

Remainder, get it? x.x (mathematically valid) NOT x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x (mathematically invalid) 0.2 is a number. 0.2.1 is not a number

Or do you want to argue the dictionary is wrong?
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It's a relative majority. This is fun, discussing something with someone who refuses to back down even when the others are more qualified and are right.
 
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