30th of June strikes.

[uk_unbeliever]

And why does MrMoon think it acceptable to tax poor workers in the private sector to give wealthier public sector workers a pension that the poor workers could never ever afford themselves?

Which pension schemes are you talking about exactly? the problem with this whole debate is misinformation and misunderstanding on all sides. For example, I am almost certain that the LGPS (local government) scheme that I am in is self sustainable currently, but I'm not sure about other schemes. 'public sector pensions' are not a single thing but it's always presented as such for political gain

 

[MrMoonX]

And why does MrMoon think it acceptable to tax poor workers in the private sector to give wealthier public sector workers a pension that the poor workers could never ever afford themselves? This is especially relevant with the confirmation that the low paid public sector workers will be exempt (up to £15,000 per annum) or capped (£15,000-£18,000 per annum) in terms of increases in costs?

but this isnt a private/public stand off, all workers should be standing up and saying we are not taking it anymore no matter where they work, im pretty sure people in the private sector are having their terms abused just like in the public sector, the simple difference is they are not doing anything about it and are just bitter that public sector workers are standing up

 

[Dolph]

with Unison now on board thats over 2million people, plus the smaller unions now on board we are looking at 3 million people on 30th June, should unison decide to strike, this government will have achieved more people striking than Thatcher, id call that quite a lot of support

There are over 60m people in this country, there are around 30m people of working age in the country. 3m people is a small minority of people in that context.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

with Unison now on board thats over 2million people, plus the smaller unions now on board we are looking at 3 million people on 30th June, should unison decide to strike, this government will have achieved more people striking than Thatcher, id call that quite a lot of support

You can't get anymore out on June 30th - strike ballots have to run for a minimum of 3 weeks - there isn't time. They'll be no summer of discontent (plus what's the point when the schools are closed anyhow?).

September/Autumn is another issue though.............................

 

[MrMoonX]

You can't get anyome out on June 3-th - strike ballots have to run for a minimum of 3 weeks - there isn't time. They'll be no summer of discontent (plus what's the point when the schools are closed anyhow?).

September/Autumn is another issue though.............................

wildcat is a very real option for 30th June, as many unions who missed the boat might just think **** it, it happened in 2007 with the POA and no legal action was taken, it could get very interesting.

oh and blah blah blah deficit, why dont you tories go tax the banks and big business, oh wait no lets reduce corporation tax, and make everyday normal people pay more, that should protect the party donations for another year

 

[Dolph]

but this isnt a private/public stand off, all workers should be standing up and saying we are not taking it anymore no matter where they work, im pretty sure people in the private sector are having their terms abused just like in the public sector, the simple difference is they are not doing anything about it and are just bitter that public sector workers are standing up

In the real world, money doesn't grow on trees and can't be forced out of people, hence employment costs need to be reasonable and competitive, otherwise you go from having a job with no or a poor pension to no job at all.

Public sector workers are used to being able to extract money from the productive economy by force, well, guess what, the productive economy is starting to fight back and demand better value.

 

[Dolph]

wildcat is a very real option for 30th June, as many unions who missed the boat might just think **** it, it happened in 2007 with the POA and no legal action was taken, it could get very interesting.

oh and blah blah blah deficit, why dont you tories go tax the banks and big business, oh wait no lets reduce corporation tax, and make everyday normal people pay more, that should protect the party donations for another year

Wildcat action would be even better, gross misconduct

I urge everyone who thinks striking is a good idea to do this

 

[Deleted member 66701]

wildcat is a very real option for 30th June, as many unions who missed the boat might just think **** it, it happened in 2007 with the POA and no legal action was taken, it could get very interesting.

Oh deffinately. We nearly walked out on Thursday - I had to actually persuade members to not do it and wait for the official ballot,.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Does wealth and business flight not cause concern?

Taxing the rich and big business till their nuts pop might create redistribution in the perfect world but in reality it creates flight. That makes me wonder if it is a necessary evil.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Does wealth and business flight not cause concern?

Taxing the rich and big business till their nuts pop might create redistribution in the perfect world but in reality it creates flight. That makes me wonder if it is a necessary evil.

There is no evidence this would happen.

Closing the tax gap doesn't create a tax system where "thier nuts would pop" - it really wouldn't be a significant increase at all.

How many people emigrated from the UK when VAT went up to 20%? How many emigrated when the personal tax rate went up to 25% in the 80's? None - plenty of people moan but not many act - it's no different for big business. They'll have a whinge and a moan about it but ultimately very few of them will act on their words.

People accuse the Unions of scaremongering - big business is the worst perpetrator of all!

 

[Von Smallhausen]

So no top rate rate taxpayers have used canny accounting etc and moved to lower tax countries ?

 

[Deleted member 66701]

So no top rate rate taxpayers have used canny accounting etc and moved to lower tax countries ?

No more than when the tax rate was at 40%, no.

They'd do it if the tax rate was 5% because they're selfish ****!

 

[rojones]

I'm cant be bothered to read the previous 13 pages, but something has really wound me up recently and by recently i am talking the last few years building up to recently. All i hear on the radio/tv and see in the news papers is false BS about public sector pay and pensions.

Now its obvious that its simply there to wind people up in the private sector in to believing the nonsense to allow the government of the day to push through whatever agenda they like against the public sector workers.

1st this nonsense about public sector pay being the same as private. Well i work in IT in the NHS and i have had friends and colleagues who have worked in both private and public and i can tell you know even to this date that this idea of equal pay is a load of nonsense. One of my former colleagues used to do work a 2nd line support position in out dept. he left for a similar job in the private sector and essentially doubled his pay and company car etc. he even states himself his current job is a lot less hassle and easier and this isn't a one off.

Then there is the pensions thing, i get so angry when all i hear on the news is "public sector final salary pensions" its nonsense i started paying in to my pension 5 years ago (before the most recent changes, and im not on a final salary pension its an average over a certain amount of years (which i may add they keep proposing to increasing whenever they feel like it) and they have already increased our contributions and retirement age etc.

I get so frustrated thinking the media spew out all this BS to simply make people in the private sector hate public sector workers. I just hope that the more sensible people actually read and find out what's actually happening rather than believing the nonsense they hear from every media outlet.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I'm cant be bothered to read the previous 13 pages, but something has really wound me up recently and by recently i am talking the last few years building up to recently. All i hear on the radio/tv and see in the news papers is false BS about public sector pay and pensions.

Now its obvious that its simply there to wind people up in the private sector in to believing the nonsense to allow the government of the day to push through whatever agenda they like against the public sector workers.

1st this nonsense about public sector pay being the same as private. Well i work in IT in the NHS and i have had friends and colleagues who have worked in both private and public and i can tell you know even to this date that this idea of equal pay is a load of nonsense. One of my former colleagues used to do work a 2nd line support position in out dept. he left for a similar job in the private sector and essentially doubled his pay and company car etc. he even states himself his current job is a lot less hassle and easier and this isn't a one off.

Then there is the pensions thing, i get so angry when all i hear on the news is "public sector final salary pensions" its nonsense i started paying in to my pension 5 years ago (before the most recent changes, and im not on a final salary pension its an average over a certain amount of years (which i may add they keep proposing to increasing whenever they feel like it) and they have already increased our contributions and retirement age etc.

I get so frustrated thinking the media spew out all this BS to simply make people in the private sector hate public sector workers. I just hope that the more sensible people actually read and find out what's actually happening rather than believing the nonsense they hear from every media outlet.

It's the politics of envy rojones - a sorry state of affairs.

The odd thing is that there isn't really anything to be envious about!

 

[Freakbro]

How would you reduce the defecit MrMoon?

160 billion doesn't grow on trees as you are no doubt aware. Cuts are inevitable and the public sector does have fat that can be trimmed like any other company or department.

This is only if you believe that cutting expenditure is the only way out of the situation, as the current mantra is telling you...over and over and over again, it's a common trick really isn't it, you just keep repeating a statement (or lie) long enough and people believe it.

Many core EU contries are increasing their expenditure right now, (including us btw) eg:

Germany increased public spending by 3.6% and it's deficit fell and GDP increased.

Greece slashed it's expenditure by -12.8% and it's deficit increased and GDP fell.

These are the 2 extreme ends, but there are plenty inbetween that show this trend.

Ironically all these cuts everyone is so convinced we need now are actually going to increase the defict and overall debt of this country in the short to medium term.

Then supposedly growth will kick in and that is what will get us out of this mess.

It's one huge gamble that all you guys are so sure is what is needed and will work, when even the guys implementing this are aware it's unknown and far from certain.

 

[Slam62]

It's the politics of envy rojones - a sorry state of affairs.

The odd thing is that there isn't really anything to be envious about!

my experience is that the private sector had to put up with this years ago, that's why you won't get much sympathy.

public sector is totally different to private sector, it just amazes me this has taken so long, time to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[MrMoonX]

Wildcat action would be even better, gross misconduct

I urge everyone who thinks striking is a good idea to do this

I was part of wildcat action in 2007 4 years later I still have a job and there wasnt even a hint of any disciplinary action, they arnt going to sack the entire civil service if everyone wildcats, fool

 

[Dolph]

I was part of wildcat action in 2007 4 years later I still have a job and there wasnt even a hint of any disciplinary action, they arnt going to sack the entire civil service if everyone wildcats, fool

Personal insults are hardly a convincing retort, probably all you've got if your posts are anything to go by, but hardly convincing.

Everyone won't wildcat, as your own strike ballots have shown, the number of people who actually care is small. With the jobs market as it is, a quick call to recruitment agencies could easily replace enough dismissed workers to keep the service going. Might even save us some money in the long term as we'd see exactly how overmanned the public sector is

 

[Dolph]

Here's a simple test for everyone.

Sainsburys staff: If you could get a law passed forcing everyone to buy groceries from sainsburys, we could get more pay and a better pension.

Is the above position a reasonable one to hold?

 

[MrMoonX]

Personal insults are hardly a convincing retort, probably all you've got if your posts are anything to go by, but hardly convincing.

Everyone won't wildcat, as your own strike ballots have shown, the number of people who actually care is small. With the jobs market as it is, a quick call to recruitment agencies could easily replace enough dismissed workers to keep the service going. Might even save us some money in the long term as we'd see exactly how overmanned the public sector is

keep dreaming, they wont sack wildcat workers, they never have and never will, your tory fanboyism is laughable it literally is like thatchers wet dream listening to your posts about sacking strikers.

Your either a banker or jealous that workers are standing up for their rights because you dont have enough conviction to stand up for your own