Cameron doesn't care about the UK manufacturing industry

GAC · 17 Jun 2011 at 21:03

plenty of call centers and take aways spook187, im sure they will pick up the slack.

Slam62 · 17 Jun 2011 at 21:06

government borrows money to buy from abroad because taxation needed to offset the deficit are so high, the cost of living is high because we import so much and have to refund the banks the cash they lost down the back of the sofa and need to pay bonus's to keep the best employee's.

Wow what a great plan, I cannot see where this could go wrong.

Slam62 · 17 Jun 2011 at 21:07

GAC said:
plenty of call centers and take aways spook187, im sure they will pick up the slack.

apparently it's nail parlors and hair dressers :eek:

Biohazard · 17 Jun 2011 at 21:14

Slam62 said:
Wow what a great plan, I cannot see where this could go wrong.

stop copying me

Vonhelmet · 18 Jun 2011 at 07:29

Biohazard said:
Why is Mr Cameron trying to do just that then?

Manufacturing is not dead, heavy industry is.

Would you rather a service economy or a mixed economy?

I'd rather mixed, but I struggle to see how we can compete a lot of the time. Maybe I'm thinking more of the heavy industry end or things, though.

Bear · 18 Jun 2011 at 08:02

Biohazard said:
Which is why we should fix our problems, not just keep throwing money abroad.

Not all German companies have rock solid history of performance, look at Bilfinger Berger for example.

Definately the rubbish job they did in Edinburgh is a joke

icehot · 18 Jun 2011 at 08:10

Let's remember why such drastic and unfair decisions need to be made, but no its better to just blame who's currently doing the job and not who ****** up this country before hand.

Dolph · 18 Jun 2011 at 08:34

Caring for manufacturing is about ensuring manufacturers have a competitive regulatory and tax environment to function in, not about propping them up with dodgy contract awards.

eXor · 18 Jun 2011 at 08:41

KNiVES said:
And people wonder why we're going down the drainage.

Don't be so melodramatic.

The UK has a long, long way to go before it sinks to the level of some unfortunate developing country.

Orcish-Horde · 18 Jun 2011 at 11:24

eXor said:
Don't be so melodramatic.

The UK has a long, long way to go before it sinks to the level of some unfortunate developing country.

It may have a long way to go but its heading that way. If Bombardier pulls out of the UK, NI will take a large economic hit. Which would be ironic given we had Cameron singling us out for being economical dependant on Tax Funding. Penny wise pound foolish comes to mind, at a time when NI is looking at taking a hit in its block grant to bring in more business, by cutting corporation tax.

Dolph · 18 Jun 2011 at 11:32

Orcish-Horde said:
It may have a long way to go but its heading that way. If Bombardier pulls out of the UK, NI will take a large economic hit. Which would be ironic given we had Cameron singling us out for being economical dependant on Tax Funding. Penny wise pound foolish comes to mind, at a time when NI is looking at taking a hit in its block grant to bring in more business, by cutting corporation tax.

If Bombardier had put together the best bid, it would have won.

Why should we accept less than the best bid?

Slam62 · 18 Jun 2011 at 11:41

surely all the tax due on the purchase, wages, corp tax etc would be payable in this country, therefore the country as a whole would save about 1bn quid.

Instead it will be going to the German government, great, after all we've got debt coming out of ears, we can afford a bit more to help the German economy :rolleyes:

the tories are so stupid, free market, free market, free market blah blah blah... only it's not a free market and you have to consider the bigger picture and longer term.

Like not selling of the council houses or public utilities and giving away the revenue from north sea oil :rolleyes:

Evoss · 18 Jun 2011 at 11:44

German engineering

VDUB 4tw!

Dolph · 18 Jun 2011 at 11:46

Slam62 said:
surely all the tax due on the purchase, wages, corp tax etc would be payable in this country, therefore the country as a whole would save about 1bn quid.

Instead it will be going to the German government, great, after all we've got debt coming out of ears, we can afford a bit more to help the German economy

the tories are so stupid, free market, free market, free market blah blah blah... only it's not a free market and you have to consider the bigger picture and longer term.

Like not selling of the council houses or public utilities and giving away the revenue from north sea oil

So you argue for a rigged market, because that's always worked so well before?

VeNT · 18 Jun 2011 at 11:51

Dolph said:
So you argue for a rigged market, because that's always worked so well before?

yeah just look at BAE!
why buy a jet fighter that fits the spec and costs very little to buy and maintain when you can have an English company (that is owned by other countries, gets most of the parts from other countries etc) make it for 10x the price and charge 100x the fees to support it?

Slam62 · 18 Jun 2011 at 12:27

VeNT said:
yeah just look at BAE!
why buy a jet fighter that fits the spec and costs very little to buy and maintain when you can have an English company (that is owned by other countries, gets most of the parts from other countries etc) make it for 10x the price and charge 100x the fees to support it?

This works really well until you cannot borrow any more money.

look, we have to somehow earn the cash we spend and borrow, this is not going to happen with out investment.

One reason imported planes etc seem so much better value is because they are subsidised via the home nation paying most of the development costs.

Another reason is that they are less capable and not the result of a very inefficient european consortium.

VeNT · 18 Jun 2011 at 12:44

don't agree with the less capable.
could take off from current carriers? check
can achieve roles currently required? check.
etc etc etc
seem better on most fronts tbh

tbh I see this day in day out in the NHS
we recently had to have some new lights fitted and the cost was 15x that of a private firm because we HAD to use a set list of companies
same goes for purchasing hardware, want part xyz? well you can't buy it online from the company that costs £100 you have to buy it from one of these guys who all charge £500.

Sin_Chase · 18 Jun 2011 at 12:56

People are easily up in arms when the government does something when they could have saved money, done it better/faster/stronger or otherwise but the second it looks like the government is screwing the country for what is more than likely the aforementioned reasons people are still up in arms. The DEY TOOK OUR JEWBS argument.

Chances are they are not outsourcing it to Germany 'Just because' or out of spite, there are more than likely plenty of tangible reasons why it is being done in this way which many of the bandwagon slaters will fail to see or accept.

Slam62 · 18 Jun 2011 at 13:04

VeNT said:
don't agree with the less capable.
could take off from current carriers? check
can achieve roles currently required? check.
etc etc etc
seem better on most fronts tbh

I don't think this quite covers it, there are a few more things to consider..

If you are moaning about the Typhoon, the only thing that can touch it is the F22 and that is a tad expensive.

VeNT said:
tbh I see this day in day out in the NHS
we recently had to have some new lights fitted and the cost was 15x that of a private firm because we HAD to use a set list of companies
same goes for purchasing hardware, want part xyz? well you can't buy it online from the company that costs £100 you have to buy it from one of these guys who all charge £500.

I expect the list of companies probably included private ones :confused:

I don't think you can compare purchasing lights with purchasing a Multi-Role combat aircraft, slightly different beast.

Amp34 · 18 Jun 2011 at 13:07

PermaBanned said:
Come now, be fair. They care about giving their mates all the country's money, don't they?

A service economy is bound to fail, it doesn't make any money - it just moves it around. We used to have a thriving manufacturing industry. We had great engineers working for renowned government funded organizations. We had a ton of projects, and proposals that had the potential to make Britain a major player in a number of new industries, including space exploration and satellite launch capability. We made ruddy good ships. And what's more, people were proud to do these jobs. You could make something then you could take your family to see it launch, and that would inspire a new generation.

But no, apparently there was no money in that. So now every other person works in an office, doing the same thing day in, day out and never having anything to show for it. Now a generation has grown up seeing people do this their entire lives - and they've got nothing to look forward to. They won't even have the brilliant services their predecessors had, because apparently they wasted all the money so now you can't afford them.

You tell me that's progress? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Sorry, must have missed the news that MBDA, BAE, Astrium, GSK etc have withdrawn from the UK*... (and they are just a few manufacturers based in my small home town).

We used to do a lot of heavy industry, now we esque that and concentrate more on the lighter, more profitable industry. As I've argued before, why import hundreds of tons of Iron to make railway tracks for little profit when you can make high tech computer components, satellites and other expensive products. Leave the lower profit/lower skilled products to others who have cheaper labour. I'm not arguing about the trains, just pointing out we have a thriving manufacturing industry (think we're top 10 in the world actually), unlike the doomsayers who complain about heavy steel plants shutting down...

cm1179 said:
well, the question was to the op. that was the point.

what car do you drive then, amigafan2003? a morgan?

New Jaguar or a Landrover maybe? He is a Union representative isn't he...

Slam62 said:
come on, you cannot be this naive surely,

The Germans, French, US, Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, Dutch, Belgians, Indians and pretty much every other nation in the world favours their own industry, usually by imposing some petty import rule that puts up the price.

These countries are extremely nationalistic in terms of home grown products, it's only this country where people with a lot more money than brains have been suckered in by the 'German Engineering' 'Vorsprung durch high running costs' rubbish.

So we borrow money and pay it to Germans, lets hope these new trains are something special and can turn the economy around.

Actually aren't they going to be used to transport more bankers, lawyers and accountants in to London? Brilliant just what we need.

Yet go to other nations and they say exactly the same thing... People from every country complain in exactly the same way about "other" nations taking their industry... It's not quite as news worthy (in the UK at least) when a UK company take over a foreign company. Just have a look in the business section of a decent paper and see how many UK companies are taking over other, sometimes large, foreign companies.