Suspected burglar stabbed to death by homeowner

If a gang of masked people were in the house the home owners would have been seriously intimidated. In that situation you cannot think straight and using excessive force is a natural response. Imagine the adrenaline etc. Furthermore if the scum hadn't have broken in it wouldn't have happened.

I seriously hope they get let off, they probably won't because modern law stands for everything BUT ethics. It will also send a message out to people thinking about committing burglaries.
 
If a gang of masked people were in the house the home owners would have been seriously intimidated. In that situation you cannot think straight and using excessive force is a natural response. Imagine the adrenaline etc. Furthermore if the scum hadn't have broken in it wouldn't have happened.

I seriously hope they get let off, they probably won't because modern law stands for everything BUT ethics. It will also send a message out to people thinking about committing burglaries.

It wouldn't be excessive force, they haven't even been charged and the law favours the homeowner massively.
 
If a gang of masked people were in the house the home owners would have been seriously intimidated. In that situation you cannot think straight and using excessive force is a natural response. Imagine the adrenaline etc. Furthermore if the scum hadn't have broken in it wouldn't have happened.

I seriously hope they get let off, they probably won't because modern law stands for everything BUT ethics. It will also send a message out to people thinking about committing burglaries.

What that if you commit a crime you'll end up dead? As much as I despise criminals I don't think this is the right way of ending burglary. Anger has also never been a valid excuse for murder so I don't see why you should be exempt because they're in your house.
 
The test is whether the force used was reasonable.

4 masked men with balaclava breaking into your home and a man defending his son with a knife?

If i were a juror, looks reasonable to me.

Obviously we don't know the details, but on the face of it, 4 masked intruder with weapons doesn't look good for the CPS.
 
Tony Martin also on the face of it seemed to be a hero of the common man until you started to hear more and more about what actually happened


Tony martin made repeated appeals to the police to prevent persistent burglaries to his home/property by local ******. He was ignored and eventually took the law into his own hands.
The 'facts' as you put it are that he asked for help from the authorities and didn't get any so eventually he took matters into his own hands believing he was not going to get any help whatsoever. That he was angry enough to kill one of those 'pillars of the community-salt of the earth-all round good lads-never hurt a fly ******' is as much the fault of the police who did nothing to help him as it is his for pulling the trigger when the burglars were running away.
In the same position I'd be pretty damn angry too. I'd defy any of you to not take steps to cover up what happened had you done what martin did after all the trouble he'd experienced leading up to the shooting.
What happened there was unfortunate for all concerned, but there would have never been such an incident had a) the police done their job to start with b) those two lads had not tried to take what did not belong to them.

The gang could just have easily fled as soon as they realised anyone was home. This is why we need to know more about everyone involved to make an actual judgment on whether or not this was justified self defence or a mental case who plans killing people getting his opportunity.

Nobody is saying the burglars should be let off for their role in this also, but let's remember that is pretty much just breaking and entering, I'm not sure the law prosecutes people based upon what they may be capable of or everyone who ever got an unpaid ticket would go away for life.

If they didn't think anyone was home, why did they wear balaclavas to hide their identities? More likely they were prepared to do the job, most likely with violence, regardless of anyone being at home or not. The fact that they encountered more resistance than they were bargaining for is the most logical reason for them legging it.

Whilst I agree that there's likely more to this than is at once apparent and that certain procedures must follow, I think your reasoning is flawed and in the case of martin, misinformed.
 
The phrase 'No honour among thieves' really works here though if they apparently carried him for a bit then just dumped him without even calling 999, so really the 3 surviving members need manslaughter adding to there charge sheet.
 
Tony martin made repeated appeals to the police to prevent persistent burglaries to his home/property by local ******. He was ignored and eventually took the law into his own hands.

Well, except he didn't, the facts show this...

The 'facts' as you put it are that he asked for help from the authorities and didn't get any so eventually he took matters into his own hands believing he was not going to get any help whatsoever. That he was angry enough to kill one of those 'pillars of the community-salt of the earth-all round good lads-never hurt a fly ******' is as much the fault of the police who did nothing to help him as it is his for pulling the trigger when the burglars were running away.

Except he never actually reported any burglaries to the police...

In the same position I'd be pretty damn angry too. I'd defy any of you to not take steps to cover up what happened had you done what martin did after all the trouble he'd experienced leading up to the shooting.
What happened there was unfortunate for all concerned, but there would have never been such an incident had a) the police done their job to start with b) those two lads had not tried to take what did not belong to them.

Are we discussing what Tony Martin actually did, or what you think he did?
 
What that if you commit a crime you'll end up dead? As much as I despise criminals I don't think this is the right way of ending burglary. Anger has also never been a valid excuse for murder so I don't see why you should be exempt because they're in your house.

Arguing generally and not specific to this case. It's not anger. It's not pre-meditated. If someone walks into your house wearing a balaclava and acts in an intimidating manner then your adrenaline and instincts take over. It's a natural survival mechanism. You can't just assume that person was in an entirely rational and sound state of mind when they used excessive force, that is naive.

It would be an entirely different story if the home owner chased an intruder 200 metres down the street and then brutally murdered them.
 
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Arresting them was the right move until all of the facts were discovered. If it's true that the burglar broke into their home then they should be released as per David Cameron's stance on defending your home. I quote "you leave your human rights at the door".
 
Not really.

At the moment the Police don't know what happened, thus they treat it as a Murder until they've got more info.

Doing anything less would mean that murders would be more likely to go unpunished/unsolved - treating it as a murder gives them the manpower to do the investigation properly, otherwise it's taking one persons word with the risk of losing important evidence.

The thread was still on first page when I posted that - stupid BT!

After reading all of the thread, I have to say, my opinion still hasn't changed much. Obviously, at this stage they are just investigating and nobody knows the outcome etc.

However, let's face facts. Chances are 90% of us won't have any training/experience/knowledge about how to deal with a situation like this. (obviously people like Castiel will?) And in the same situation, we would **** ourselves. Nobody would think AT ALL about reasonable force etc, they would just be scared and would lash out at whatever they thought was they threat. Obviously, it's unreasonable to keep stabbing once someone is on the floor, however, as long as they're standing and within close proximity, I would keep doing whatever I could to hurt them - whether that was with my fists or a knife.

I doubt many of you would do any differently - we'd all be ****ting ourselves and falling back on our basic, Neanderthalic instincts

That being said, we barely know any of the details so can't really comment
 
So much legal hoo ha.

The burglar had crappy friends if they dragged him far enough from the house then dumped him.

4 guys breaks into a house, one of them dies, homeowner gets arrested. lol
 
The police had to arrest him until they gone through all the procedures. Someone died, they have a weapon, and the person who used that weapon.

It is now up to the CPS whether they think they can form a successful case after all the evidence is collected.

He is arrested and the clock can starts ticking, and all the interview process can start. We will know in a couple of days whether he will be charged.
 
Arguing generally and not specific to this case. It's not anger. It's not pre-meditated. If someone walks into your house wearing a balaclava and acts in an intimidating manner then your adrenaline and instincts take over. It's a natural survival mechanism. You can't just assume that person was in an entirely rational and sound state of mind when they used excessive force, that is naive.

It would be an entirely different story if the home owner chased an intruder 200 metres down the street and then brutally murdered them.

Fortunately what you've just said is exactly what the law states. I was mainly talking about the cases where people have actively chased people in acts of rage. I do understand that it might prove tough to restrain yourself in self defence.
 
off the topic a little

Well, except he didn't, the facts show this...

where does it say that?

Except he never actually reported any burglaries to the police...

again where does it say this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
wiki said:
Martin also complained about police inaction over the burglaries. The police reports state that multiple items and furniture were stolen such as dinner ware and a grandfather clock
I cannot find any support to show he didn't contact the police - Complaints about police inaction would surely follow a report to begin with? Plus the police reports of 'stolen items'.
One of the bbc articles states that martin did not trust the police, though it doesn't specify if this was before, during or after any reported burglaries, though it might be considered logical to assume it was after nothing had been acted upon.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3009769.stm
bbc said:
It became apparent that Martin's orchard farm and home, called Bleak House, had been plagued by crime for years.
Are we discussing what Tony Martin actually did, or what you think he did?
The last quote of mine is my opinion as to how I would regard such things and not subject to scrutiny of facts as it is simply my opinion of what was reported and why, not 'what I think happened' as you suggest.
Or are you saying martin would have shot at them if they hadn't tried to steal from him? Because that's a little bit like argument for arguments sake imo.
 
Love the way he says "unfortunately died in hospital" Yea right! good riddance to another **** I say.
 
Not being a policeman it's not my job to say how an investigation should be done. I would suggest taking statements from man and any witnesses, establishing identities, looking at evidence at the scene, making a judgement if statements are coherent and are corroborated by evidence. If not arrest suspect, otherwise continue investigation until sure no crime has been committed.

I take it your approach would be to march in, arrest the man and tell him it's for his own good as he now gets a free lawyer. Like I said, subtlety isn't your strong point is it?

Some simple things are, how would you investigate, where would you conduct the interviews, would you bring separate say, caravans to the site so you can both have somewhere to put the "suspects" to question them, and hold them while you also question other suspects, just so you don't have to arrest them?

Legally, for the person being arrested it is BETTER they be arrested than asked to come of their own accord down to the station. They will have FAR more legal rights arrested than not.

To conduct the investigation you rightly suggest take place, you need the forensics guys to come in, do you think they walk in, talk a pic, walk out and discuss it outside and instantly come up with an answer? no, likewise police get called out, detectives get called out, maybe their boss gets called out. What does the potential murderer do all this time, they just sit him in the back of a squad car and ask him politely not to run off?

First thing you do, detain any suspects, its really pretty simple, you investigate, you interview, investigate more, and interview again.

You need to generally speaking, get a look at the crime scene, speak with everyone involved who you can, compare stories to any quick evidence you have, then re-interview, compare stories, doing so will in most cases give you a massively, massively better idea of the situation than you will minutes after you arrive at a crime scene. So yes, decisions like releasing people or keeping them further should be made later on with a heck of a lot more information then right after it happened guessing at who was right or wrong.

Detaining suspects is the ONLY sensible option we have. What if it turned out to be flat out murder but because you can't detain anyone unless you're sure of their guilt, he fled the country.


There are some awful stories of stupid cases that get handled wrongly or seemingly have the wrong and very unfair verdict, but just as many situations like these turn out pretty well for the homeowners.
 
Except he never actually reported any burglaries to the police...

It would appear to be accepted on the facts that his house was broken into and he was unsatisfied with the police response, from which I can only reasonably infer that he did report some of the incidents to the police - http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2001/2245.html at paragraph 16.

However, I agree with you that Mr Martin's conviction for voluntary manslaughter was entirely correct. The forensic evidence in paragraphs 26-34 is damning and why the original jury convicted. Rather than coming down the stairs from bed as he claimed, it was found he must have been hiding in the dark on the ground floor with his shotgun loaded waiting for the burglars. If I were sitting on the jury and heard those facts, I would not consider a stealth attack on the burglars with a shotgun 'reasonable' force.

jumpy, if you read the judgment you will note that their Lordships as well as the original trial judge took all the background facts into account when passing sentence.

scorza, you do realise an arrest is not the same as a conviction or some insidious Orwellian nightmare? All it can mean is that you are compelled to go to the police station with the cops to answer questions. A PC needs reasonable suspicion that it is necessary per s.24 PACE and a dead bloke outside your house is fairly suspicious and worth investigating. If he was merely nursing a wound or whatever then the police would probably just request a later appearance at a police station. The mavity of homicide means that swift investigation is necessary to preserve evidence etc. and the quickest way is arrest. It's not some kind of punishment in itself and homicide is thankfully unusual enough in this country. The custody officer is only going to charge you/keep you in custody/not grant you bail if he thinks there is enough evidence. No prejudice against home-owners that I can see.
 
lol, I love the way the cowardly child murderer Tony Martin is bought into the discussion!

You do realise that he was convicted of shooting a fleeing child in the back with an illegally-held pump-action shotgun?
And the reason he had his gun licence revoked was because he had been shooting hardened criminals that were stealing APPLES from his land :rolleyes: Yeah, he sounds like the kinda guy you want in possession of a lethal weapon :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The cold blooded murderer should be in prison reflecting on why he felt it was acceptable to kill someone that posed no threat to his life what-so-ever!
But thanks to the moronic Sun readers he got lucky!
Vengeful, violent people like him are a danger to society and knowing crazy idiots like him are walking our streets worries me far more than some mickey mouse thief like Fred Barras!!
 
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