is MSI a decent board? relaible

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 17:18

Haha, yea I suppose you can call me a scot now (lived north of the wall for 10 years).

The reason I suggested the 1600MHz Corsair XMS3 kit is because that specific kit is very widely regarded as an excellent quality RAM kit from a good company with good warranty - and it only costs a few quid more than the cheapest 1333MHz 4GB kit which is a from a company that no longer makes RAM.

As for running 1600MHz RAM, I should have been clearer - running RAM faster that 1333MHz is not overclocking in the way you would normally imagine it. Since the BCLK (FSB) is locked at 100MHz on sandy bridge systems then the only way you can overclock the RAM is by increasing the RAM multiplier. This in no way affects or overclocks the CPU - since that is controlled by a totally separate multiplier. Hence running a 1600MHz two stick RAM kit on a sandy bridge mobo is incredibly simple.

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 17:26

we are going to overclock the 2500k to 4Ghz with turbo on so it boosts 4.4Ghz when he uses FSX and back down to 4Ghz when not... would we be better buying 1600Mhz and overclocking the memory controller in the CPU to boost it to 1600Mhz? or just buying Corsair 1333Mhz or 1600Mhz RAM and leaving it at 1333Mhz..?

I was going to buy only Corsair ram anyway

edit: what is difference between 1.5v and 1.65v ? why does it matter? if I was overclocking it to 1600Mhz (its stock speed) would it matter which one i got?

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 17:45

To be honest, I wouldn't use Turbo boost when running a high overclock like that. Instead what I would suggest setting up the overclock for 4.4GHz (pretty simple with these CPUs and a decent cooler) and then enable Speedstep -so the CPU clocks itself down when not under heavy load and ramps up to full speed when under load (eg. playing FSX).

As for the RAM, I would buy 1600MHz stuff and run it at 1600MHz. With two sticks running 1600MHz RAM with these systems is not a problem and really doesn't add any hassle even though you are technically slightly overclocking the memory controller (which is rated at 1333MHz for four sticks of RAM - running 1600MHz on two stick really isn't an issue, it just isn't rubber stamped by intel).

As for the voltage - with sandy bridge systems you really don't want to run memory at a voltage higher than 1.55V. The Corsair XMS3 kit is known to run at this voltage and 1600MHz perfectly well - hence why it is such a popular kit.

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 18:03

cmndr_andi said:
To be honest, I wouldn't use Turbo boost when running a high overclock like that. Instead what I would suggest setting up the overclock for 4.4GHz (pretty simple with these CPUs and a decent cooler) and then enable Speedstep -so the CPU clocks itself down when not under heavy load and ramps up to full speed when under load (eg. playing FSX).

As for the RAM, I would buy 1600MHz stuff and run it at 1600MHz. With two sticks running 1600MHz RAM with these systems is not a problem and really doesn't add any hassle even though you are technically slightly overclocking the memory controller (which is rated at 1333MHz for four sticks of RAM - running 1600MHz on two stick really isn't an issue, it just isn't rubber stamped by intel).

As for the voltage - with sandy bridge systems you really don't want to run memory at a voltage higher than 1.55V. The Corsair XMS3 kit is known to run at this voltage and 1600MHz perfectly well - hence why it is such a popular kit.

thanks... Ive just asked something similar on my other thread... I will prbs get wrong now for having two threads that have gone off subject both talking about RAM speeds lol....sorry

that XMS3 set is 1.5v yeah? - think I will just buy that and get it at 1600

right, the next thing is GPU... im tied up with a 560 or 460 SOC (which is faster on paper and slightly cheaper)

whats your thoughts?

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 18:23

Aye, set the XMS3 voltage to 1.5 or 1.55V and set the frequency to 1600MHz and the timings to stock - then check if it's stable (it should be). If not, slightly loosen the timings until it is stable.

As for the GPU, may I ask what your budget is? If you possibly can I would stretch to the GTX 560 Ti like this since it has a lot more stream processors than the GTX 460 or 560 (384 vs 336) and is clocked at around the same level.

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 19:36

around £150 mark for GPU... thing is with Ti's is your paying about 20-30% more just to get 10% extra performance...not worth it IMO.. I think a 460 SOC @ £138 is better than paying £178 for a 560 Ti that will be 10% (if that) faster - trying to arrive in on budget too - currently just short of £600 which is the absolute max cos it was £500 but pushed that up to get 560's and P67+2500K's etc...can NOT push it up anymore as already done so by £100

someone says on my other thread that i just set XMP in the BIOS and be good to go with the memory at 1600mhz?

isnt the XMS3 voltage already 1.5v? I dont know anything about the 'timings' or how I would know if they need changing or owt?

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 19:59

You could use XMP, but it will set the memory voltage to 1.65V (since they were originally designed for s1156 systems) which isn't ideal for a sandy bridge system. These memory modules do run happily at lower voltage, but you need to set them manually.

As for the GTX 560Ti, you are quite right - you get diminishing returns when paying more for a graphics card. For £138 the 460 SOC is a pretty good deal.

Lemin · 25 Jun 2011 at 20:06

quote...
Iam worried about is if UEFI is actually worth pursuing as it seems to be plagued with teething problems.

Where do u get that from ! Not MSI

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 20:23

cmndr_andi said:
You could use XMP, but it will set the memory voltage to 1.65V (since they were originally designed for s1156 systems) which isn't ideal for a sandy bridge system. These memory modules do run happily at lower voltage, but you need to set them manually.

As for the GTX 560Ti, you are quite right - you get diminishing returns when paying more for a graphics card. For £138 the 460 SOC is a pretty good deal.

@ cmndr_andi - so what are the timings and why do i need to change them?

@ Lemin - Ive read on MSI forums of memory incompatabilities and other niggling things that seem to point to UEFI having teething problems and manufacturers are getting end of customers tongues for not releasing firmwares fast enough...thats the picture i seem to get from it all... not a risk I want to take so we are going with Gigabyte UD3 board with Dual-BIOS instead... it also has the 2oz copper design which decreases impedence and improves cooling aswell as memory overclocking effeciency

edit: you mention 'stepdown' is does this come on a sandybridge 2500k? what will speeds step-down too?

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 20:34

snadge said:
@ cmndr_andi - so what are the timings and why do i need to change them?

Basically, memory has three sets of important specs to look out for which are all very different:

- operating voltage
- frequency
- timings

There is some more info on memory timings here. With DDR3 the first 3 timings usually range between 7-7-7 and 10-10-10. CL9 (9-9-9) seems to be the most popular at the moment.

This article shows the actual performance difference between memory at different timings (but the same frequency) in a sandy bridge system.

The XMS3 kit has default timings of 9-9-9-24.

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 20:48

cmndr_andi said:
Basically, memory has three sets of important specs to look out for which are all very different:

- operating voltage
- frequency
- timings

There is some more info on memory timings here. With DDR3 the first 3 timings usually range between 7-7-7 and 10-10-10. CL9 (9-9-9) seems to be the most popular at the moment.

This article shows the actual performance difference between memory at different timings (but the same frequency) in a sandy bridge system.

The XMS3 kit has default timings of 9-9-9-24.

a lot of big words on that page ..."were naught but humble pirates!!" haha
- no but seriously is it easy enough to change the timings? and also, on those benchmarks @ 1600Mhz CL7 seems to be better so I take that is 7-7-7 - so lowering the timings give better FPS in that example?

also, you mentioned 'stepdown' for the CPU...how much will it step down and is there anymore info on it? - is it on a P67 2500k cpu?

thanks for all your help I really appreciate it

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 20:57

Aye, it's pretty simple to change the timings - just go into the BIOS, find the right setting and switch them to the rated value. Most likely the motherboard will initially run the XMS3 kit at CL9 timings anyway - so you won't need to change much, just check they are set right.

As for CL7 being better - well yes it is technically faster than CL9 in games, however if you look at those number the increase in performance is ~2% or less. In contrast, to buy a CL7 4GB DDR3 1600MHz kit you need to spend a lot more money (this is the cheapest CL7 one on OCUK and it's only 7-8-7-24 but it costs 61% more than the XMS3 kit).

The technology is Intel Speedstep - there is some more info on it here. It is indeed included on the i5 2500K and all modern intel CPUs.

Jaffar · 25 Jun 2011 at 21:10

Besides the 460 SOC, you might consider getting a reference clocked GTX 560 (non-ti) http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=gx-256-as&groupid=701&catid=1914&subcat= and over-clocking it. these are a fair bit cheaper than the 560-ti. ocuk do their own version for £145.99 (i'm not sure what the difference between this and the asus one is).

these are clocked at 810mhz, but it looks like an overclocked 560 can out-perform a reference 560-ti according to this: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-560-amp-edition-gtx-560-directcu-ii-top,2944-15.html

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 21:29

Jaffar said:
Besides the 460 SOC, you might consider getting a reference clocked GTX 560 (non-ti) http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=gx-256-as&groupid=701&catid=1914&subcat= and over-clocking it. these are a fair bit cheaper than the 560-ti. ocuk do their own version for £145.99 (i'm not sure what the difference between this and the asus one is).

these are clocked at 810mhz, but it looks like an overclocked 560 can out-perform a reference 560-ti according to this: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-560-amp-edition-gtx-560-directcu-ii-top,2944-15.html

hi jaffar - the 460 SOC is still faster than that 560 OC.. as far as im aware any - the 460 runs at 850mhz , the shader and memory are virtually the same and the 460 is External Exhaust which will be great as we are overclocking the memory and CPU too so could do without the extra heat

Randall8686 · 25 Jun 2011 at 21:48

Snadge

If your planning on Running FSX then Go Nvidia Card all the way dont even look at ATI !! I myself have spent time and money getting my FSX machine up to spec to play the game nicely, 8GB does help ! on my Spec i can run FSX with Few Addons, VFR air fields scenery etc and i can get about 25-30fps going into heathrow with medium traffic (My traffix X) FSX is also not that GPU intensive my 480 gets to about 30% usage but CPU is nailed ! so get the 2500k and overclock the hell out of it

make sure you install the service packs on fsx or it wont support multicore cpu's so will only use 1 core ! :O if you want any advice with the FSX configs and getting it to look good with smooth results Trust me a message and i will help ya out

Dont expect to be able to run FSX flat out if i have Full traffic and flat out graphics i will get 12fps coming into Heathrow !!!! but if i stay away from heathrow its fine Gatwick flat out with high traffic will give me 30 fps and when climbing out of 1000 feet my fps goes up into the hundreds

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 21:49

Yea, the GTX 460 and 560 use a very similar core: "As a result both cards have the same 336 SPs, 7 SMs, 32 ROPs, 512KB of L2 cache, and 1GB of GDDR5 on a 256-bit memory bus" (from anandtech).

Hence the main difference is clockspeed - the GTX 460 1GB (stock) is clocked quite a bit lower than the GTX 560s. However the GTX 460 SOC runs at core clock: 815MHz, shader clock: 1630MHz, memory clock: 4000MHz. This is pretty much bang-on the clocks of a "stock" GTX 560 like this one, is a bit cheaper and uses a better cooler.

Jaffar · 25 Jun 2011 at 21:59

But I imagine the stock 560 will have a fair bit of room for overclocking (e.g. 950-1000MHz), bringing it upto 560-Ti FPS.

Presumably the SOC has been pre-overclocked to near limit?

cmndr_andi · 25 Jun 2011 at 22:01

Aye, that is a fair point - but it depends on whether you are comfortable overclocking your card and how good the cooler that is provided with the particular GTX 560 is (afaik there isn't an nvidia stock cooler). It seems that the GTX 560 cards with the better coolers and/or higher stock overclocks are sitting very close to GTX 560Ti territory - and once you get to that point you may as well buy the full GF114 GTX 560Ti (and have a go overclocking the full 384 cores)

Jaffar · 25 Jun 2011 at 22:11

It seems that the GTX 560 cards with the better coolers and/or higher stock overclocks are sitting very close to GTX 560Ti territory - and once you get to that point you may as well buy the full GF114 GTX 560Ti (and have a go overclocking the full 384 cores)

Yeah, this is true. I haven't tried overclocking my 560 yet so am not sure how the Asus cooler on it will hold out.

snadge · 25 Jun 2011 at 22:18

@ Randall - many thanks for your offer of help, im sure i will hook up with you for advice next month when we do it, you will have too supply info one upgrades and add-ons as he has only been using FSX sp2 with a couple of aeroplanes I put on myself for him... he uses a 1680x1050 monitor...whats yours? will this help with FPS? as most people run on 1920x1080 etc...

@ - so you agree on the external exhaust 460 SOC...?

im away for eats so back later

many thanks to everyone especially cmndr_andi