Evolution vs Welfare State

[RDM]

And it is an interesting point, though. The 'welfare state' does give a security and longevity to people who would otherwise be too weak or too stupid to survive. Where nature would have them eliminated (by 'natural' causes or by being destroyed by fellow beings) due to those defects, you would essentially be weeding out such defects from the gene pool over a period of time, possibly leading to a 'naturally' stronger species while at the same time, it could be argued that the said 'welfare state' provides security so that those who are physically weaker but mentally superior, or mentally inferior but physically superior survive, so thus leading to a stronger species in different ways.

The many many generations that were born and died prior to the welfare state existing would suggest that these undefined traits you feel are not being bred out seem to be quite resilient...

If the welfare state is responsible for keeping such "defects" going in the gene pool how did they manage to survive up to the point that the welfare state was introduced?

 

[Slade2]

An Interesting post this one.

It really comes down to how you precieve the welfate state I suppose. As a healthy working father of three with a wife who also works and being 33 years of age I have a nice job as does my wife and we dont want for anything. More money would have course give us more choices but would it improve the quality of my life? I am not sure.

If I was older and my health was in question or I wasnt being paid as much at least I would have that backup of the welfare state, one thing that does upset me is the fact that there are families out there that have not done a days work and they just work the system but thats a whole other subject.

We have all seen how mother nature can be a cruel master with the recent earthquakes in Japan and I do wonder if our constant abuse of our planet will eventually make her flip out a bit. It reminds me of that scene in the matrix where Agent smith is describing the human race as a virus and that we just increase in number and consume all the natural resources on offer without thinking about the long term. I truely believe we have to start thinking more like a planet rather than individual countries. People are always flipent when its talked about becuase they say `well it wont happen in my life or my kids life time so I dont care much` could this kind of thinking be the eventuall downfall for the human race?

 

[Westyfield2]

Alcohol may have inspired this post

Going OT As the tread subject is crap...

Since when are we calling Evolution and Natural Selection the same thing?

Natural Selection is putting a bunch of brown bunny rabbits in a snowy field along with a bunch of white bunny rabbits. When the wolf comes along the white ones will camouflage a lot better They'll eventually naturally select through the gene pool to only produce white offspring. Still bunny rabbits, and from the original gene pool,


Evolution is a fish going "Derp, I'm bored of swimming." and deciding to turn into a chimpanzee.

 

[d_brennen]

Evolution is a fish going "Derp, I'm bored of swimming." and deciding to turn into a chimpanzee.

That is exactly how it happens!!! When can we expect your paper on the subject?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Going OT As the tread subject is crap...

Since when are we calling Evolution and Natural Selection the same thing?

Natural Selection is putting a bunch of brown bunny rabbits in a snowy field along with a bunch of white bunny rabbits. When the wolf comes along the white ones will camouflage a lot better They'll eventually naturally select through the gene pool to only produce white offspring. Still bunny rabbits, and from the original gene pool

Natural selection leads to evolution. Interference with natural selection interferes with evolution... so for the purposes of the OP's topic, it's sort of valid.

 

[ShaolinDreams]

Lets kill anyone who's inperfect! Who's first! You mein Freund?

Stephen Hawking is an excellent example, great minds and progress to humanity can come from many people who are not "perfect".

Couldn't you say by having social policies like having a welfare state it's actually part of man's evolution. So therefore i dont have no pancakes.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Couldn't you say by having social policies like having a welfare state it's actually part of man's evolution. So therefore i dont have no pancakes.

You could, until you start allowing people with genetic flaws and defects the ability the reproduce (using technology and medicine), which reduces nature's ability to remove the bad genes from the pool.

 

[PermaBanned]

You could, until you start allowing people with genetic flaws and defects the ability the reproduce (using technology and medicine), which reduces nature's ability to remove the bad genes from the pool.

Implying that breeding them out is the only way to deal with 'problem' genes?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Implying that breeding them out is the only way to deal with 'problem' genes?

Realistically right now it is, yeah. Hopefully we'll get to a technological stage and level of acceptance/confidence in our ability to genetically engineer that we could do it ourselves, too.

 

[d_brennen]

Realistically right now it is, yeah. Hopefully we'll get to a technological stage and level of acceptance/confidence in our ability to genetically engineer that we could do it ourselves, too.

A propensity to be up at this hour could be seen as a flaw. Are you going to be awake at sun up to gather berries and firewood?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

A propensity to be up at this hour could be seen as a flaw. Are you going to be awake at sun up to gather berries and firewood?

This went over my head

 

[PermaBanned]

Realistically right now it is, yeah. Hopefully we'll get to a technological stage and level of acceptance/confidence in our ability to genetically engineer that we could do it ourselves, too.

But that doesn't mean that we should deny people basic rights now when it could turn out not to be a problem at all in the future.

 

[ShaolinDreams]

You could, until you start allowing people with genetic flaws and defects the ability the reproduce (using technology and medicine), which reduces nature's ability to remove the bad genes from the pool.

these people are breeding now, are you suggesting we dont allow people with genetic flaws to reproduce?

You missed my previous statement about human progress that can come from people with genetic flaws, in this "perfect genes world" progress could be limited because perfect genes doesn't reflect intelligence. Everyone has a right to live and having a genetic defect is not your fault or a negative trait it is simply a bad mutation from your family history. Human progression has led us to new worlds and new questions, we are already studying Genes deeply with the Human Genome Project and implementing revolutionary new ways to treat people with terrible genetic problems i.e. gene-therapy, the technology is still in its infancy, but it has been used with some success. Our progression if we use all our minds and skills together can be far more powerful than evolution i believe.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

But that doesn't mean that we should deny people basic rights now when it could turn out not to be a problem at all in the future.

I didn't say we should. I was just stating that the fact that the healthy enabling the innately unhealthy or disabled prevents evolution of the gene pool when it comes to eradicating flaws.

these people are breeding now, are you suggesting we dont allow people with genetic flaws to reproduce

No.

 

[PermaBanned]

I didn't say we should. I was just stating that the fact that the healthy enabling the innately unhealthy or disabled prevents evolution of the gene pool when it comes to eradicating flaws.

You could, until you start allowing people with genetic flaws and defects the ability the reproduce (using technology and medicine), which reduces nature's ability to remove the bad genes from the pool.

Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family.

What am i missing here?

 

[d_brennen]

Race, nationality or religion. Not mental capacity. Just playing devil's advocate and all

 

[ShaolinDreams]

Race, nationality or religion. Not mental capacity. Just playing devil's advocate and all

When it should also say "or genetic/medical condition" oh dear

 

[Nerusy]

What am i missing here?

Just common sense that's all.

In any case, welfare state allows people who otherwise would not pass on their gene pool to have children and thus pass on gene pool.

Thus welfare state does prevent natural selection from eradicating those "bad" genes.

Apparently the intelligence is hereditary. So that if it wasn't for welfare state the average intelligence level would increase as the ones with lower intelligence would have lower chance to survive (no benefits to live on).

Thus instead of 1 disabled Hawkins we'd have dozens of able and smart scientists.

That is my understanding of the situation. As far as I understand if it wasn't for welfare state the gene pool would have been "cleaner".

But that does not mean I would want it to be cleaner, no one in their right mind would suggest forced eugenics or controlled breeding. Well at least not those in power.

Just because welfare does counteract natural selection does not mean we don't want or need welfare, there are much more benefits.

Its a similar question to kill 90% of people and distribute their wealth amongst survivors, sure the survivors would be well better off but who would ever want that to happen?

So to answer the OP, yes welfare messes up natural selection but would we be better off without welfare state...that is impossible to answer, too many variables. Also we're very social beings, its in our nature to help each other. My very wild guess is, if there was no welfare state we'd kill each other as all the compassion would die out.

 

[ShaolinDreams]

It's also in our nature to kill each other. Any noob can fire a gun... he might be genetically flawed, murdering a perfectly good goat... thus simplifying the goat gene pool. Where does it end!?

 

[wilko49]

Our use of tools, from basic weapons to the greatest engineering feats and medical marvels, is our evolutionary edge. Natural selection is not just about your survival, but rather about the continual propagation of your genetic material. Overall, keeping the less able bodied alive and well works out better for our genetic survival (imagine you or your children become crippled, or some of your offspring have a genetic disorder - luckily, we believe in keeping these people alive and well, with the potential to reproduce in future).